The silence is deafening.

by **israelirealities** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:52 am

Oh thanks Gouda, very interesting post there by Farber. I agree with it. And it was my impression for JVP as well, and from Lerner. I am glad you brought it to my attention, cause I seem to like that person. The polemics here, as i sense it too, is another form of truth gagging. One cannot just say something without this falling into the abyss of "nazi"s v. "zionists" (i think this is a "so called" definition, it is not straightforward as well)....that's why I believe that any attempt to discuss the reality of the ISraeli situation is futile, at least now and here, at least for me. I think you have just noticed the symbolic repetition of "the real world" dynamics here. This polarization is not bona fides. Its a war tactics, on both sides, and in war times, the muses are silent. One can sense the rigidity and falseness of the arguments on both sides of this rift. The result of this situation is that less people, like you had mentioned yourself, are willing to say anything about it, which leaves the field to these warring groups that already have an agenda. Specifically here, in this board, it does feel like there is a presence to this polarization. It feels like the participants have a valid cultural debate, which includes the treatment of Isael/Palestine/Jews, and the issue is used or carried into the larger divisions. Thus, whatever comes up from me, say, is immediately "recruited" to either sides without actually being addressed. Namely, there is really no interest in listening but in warring over the issue. The less polarized people, who are actually the natural community one wishes to engage, stay out of the "battlefield" not wanting to get dragged into "fire pits" of sorts,unwittingly. There is also a tone of danger/violence around the entire debate. One can feel the violence, in words. It is very hard to conduct a reasonable and open discussion in this kind of non intellectual environment. NAturally, reality is always more complex and does not fit nicely into anyone's "agenda"... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=israelirealities@rigorousintuition>israelirealities</A> at: 11/5/05 3:13 am

by **Homeless Halo** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:16 am

Several of the above posts have well summarised my reasons for generally avoiding the "israel/palesetine" discussion. Mostly the "zionist" "nazi" memes get frustrating to sift through after a while. How about this: Instead of using terms like those above to refer to "kinds" of evil people, how bout we call each and every INDIVIDUAL one of them simply "asshole", throw away terms like those above from the discussion completely, and attempt to move forward with illumination in dark places...? just a thought.

by **michael meiring** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:11 am

Gouda, Are you confusing my posts with slimmouses here? I am not wanting to 'pick another fight' with the 'people' or person you mention? This sort of disinformation associating me with 'picking fights' i find offensive. I cannot ever recollect more than 2 occasions i have ever discussed israel/palastine with the person or people you mention? Israelirealities sums it up nicely for me, people afraid to enter the debate, because of the lurkers ready to hijack it, and all of a sudden one gets smeared, i dared to question to leave the ethnicity out of a topic, and i was branded a nazi?!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol. Gouda, can you please quote me on somthing if you want to smear me in future? As a side note, have you ever been to gouda? my favorite place in Holland, just love the way they wafer thin slice them cheeses for tasting.

by **Qutb** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:23 am

Here are two sets of statements. One of the sets contains only true statements, the other one contains only false statements. It does not follow from the fact that the statements in one of the sets are true, that the statements in the other set are true as well. I'll leave it to the readers to figure out which of the sets contain false statements and which of them contains true statements. a) Israeli policies towards the Palestinians have often been brutal. The regime currently in power in Israel are right-wing thugs allied with the neo-conservatives in America. This regime deliberately provoked the "second intifada" in 2000/2001. Israel's occupation of the West Bank, taken from Jordan in the 1967 war, is illegal under international law. The Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza strip have suffered greatly under the occupation. Israeli intelligence services have been known to use torture on Palestinian prisoners. Israel used to clandestinely support Hamas, the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood responsible for many atrocities against Israeli civilians, in an attempt at "divide and rule" tactics against their arch-enemy, Yassir Arafat's PLO/Fatah. The Mossad also supported Islamic Jihad in Egypt, another branch or offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood (Hizb al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun). The Mossad is known to be a ruthless and cunning intelligence/clandestine operations service, and their machinations were exposed in Victor Ostrovsky's excellent books "By Way of Deception" and "The Other Side of Deception". b) The Zionists rule the world behind the scenes, with their allies the Freemasons, who are also Zionists in disguise. They control the United States and use its army to fight wars for Israel. They have used their control of the media and Hollywood to create the myth of the Holocaust, in order to create sympathy for Zionism among the goyim. The omnipotent Mossad, their covert arm, orchestrated 9/11 in order to create even more sympathy for Zionism. All Islamist terrorism is false-flag Mossad operations. They dominate international banking and use it as a tool to oppress the goyim. Their machinations were exposed in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, which was discovered by the Russian secret police shortly before the Zionists orchestrated the Russian Revolution. The Zionists worship Satan, who is the God of the Talmud. They sacrifice children to Satan in black magic rituals. They control the British royal family, the Federal Reserve, the Bank of England and the European Central Bank. The Rothschild family are their undisputed leaders and must be regarded as the real lords of this world and the source of all its evils.

by **michael meiring** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:43 am

qutb are you going phishing today?

by **boogie** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:53 am

Why are you using the atrocities committed against the Palestinians, and Non sequiturs tied to Makow and LaRouche, to pick another fight with dreams veritas? That’s not cool. And why would you even want to rely on racist, sexist, homophobic intellectuals (although I would not put Makow in the intellectual category – and I hesitate to term any racist homophobe an intellectual) to prop up obvious arguments against Israeli governmental or political Zionist racism and oppression of the Palestinians? There are so many others you can better learn from. Of course we need to look deeply at the backgrounds of our sources because very dangerous shit is going on. By citing these guys you shoot yourself in the foot and give yourself mouth disease and it is a shame when this important issue really does need to be discussed intelligently, openly and honestly. ________________ Logical Fallacy - Ad Hominem. A person being a racist homophobe doesn't stop them from having a valid point on a given subject, or make every/anything they say untrue or untrustworthy.

by **Soulman** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:35 am

<a href="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2626">www.zmag.org/content/show...temID=2626</a> Interesting article by Sara Roy. Hopefully this is a "politically correct" site to post from. Even if it doesn't entertain "conspiracy theories". Apart from the "official conspiracy theory" to do with 9/11.

by **AnnaLivia** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:17 pm

quote michael meiring: "I cannot ever recollect more than 2 occasions i have ever discussed israel/palastine with the person or people you mention?" did you get a beating from your master lord ryan for failure to strictly obey the new stormfront playbook on those two occasions?

by **michael meiring** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:12 pm

annie, thanks for showing your true colours, when all alse fails, bring in the old slur, maybe no one will notice eh, you sick parosht. what do you base your smear on? is it 9/11 type investigation of the syrup and pancake kind. lets get a slanging match going eh, and maybe this thread will get put into the fire pit eh? is that your sicko agenda here?

by **slimmouse** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:57 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why are you using the atrocities committed against the Palestinians, and Non sequiturs tied to Makow and LaRouche, to pick another fight with dreams veritas? That’s not cool. And why would you even want to rely on racist, sexist, homophobic intellectuals (although I would not put Makow in the intellectual category – and I hesitate to term any racist homophobe an intellectual) to prop up obvious arguments against Israeli governmental or political Zionist racism and oppression of the Palestinians?<hr></blockquote> Firstly, My article is from the Guardian. And as far as im concerned Boogie seems to have hit the nail on the head. But heres my point; whether people actually like it or not, this tends to reinforce much of what Makow, Larouche, Shamir and others have been saying for long enough. I was simply interested to see if DvE had any observations on MY chosen article, and its relationship to what was being said by the likes of Makow and co in relation to it ? Meanwhile, IMO, Makow fully understands the main driving force behind all of this, and its got nothing to do with Jews or Israelis in general. I see these people as simply a means to an overall end. You might read Webster Tarpleys take on things. That is of course if you dont get distracted by his association with Chaitken, who in turn is associated with Larouche. Thats only 2 mouse clicks away remember ! You meanwhile appear to disagree with Makow, but of course you dont support your dissaproval of my link by citing his thoughts on this. Rather than looking at the Content of Makows rhetoric with regard to the bigger picture, youve simply joined in the smearing of the man. DvE must be laughing in his coffee. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The whole atmosphere created between you and dreams veritas and proldic keeps people away from this subject and is not conducive to honest debate.<hr></blockquote> Are you sure about that ? I find that an extremely strange assessment. Im here. Im asking these guys to step up to the plate, and address this whole issue. The only thing not conducive to honest debate as i see it, is a hitherto deafening silence.

by **Gouda** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:39 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>A person being a racist homophobe doesn't stop them from having a valid point on a given subject, or make every/anything they say untrue or untrustworthy.<hr></blockquote> If only human agendas conformed to such smart logical architecture. A racist is always untrustworthy, especially when it comes to a topic such as this. They can say true things about how white milk is and how blue the sky is all day long. When it comes to a discussion about Israel and Palestine, these hominems got an agenda and you don’t touch them with a 20 meter pole. BOOGIE on. A is a racist and has some valid points B is not a racist and has some valid points. C: I’m going with B, see?

by **Gouda** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:15 am

Slim – I just see what's on the page: you post something from the Guardian that we all agree is horrible – get some predictable feedback – steer it from there. You post this news in order to instigate a look at the world through the eyes of “Makow and co”. Yeesh. You know full well where these arguments have led to in the past, so why would you think dreams end would take that bait again? Even if you do not mean it intentionally, the Guardian article was used as a means not to discuss the complexities and possible solutions to the plight of Palestinians and Israelis caught in a horrible double bind, and worse - but to raise the spectre of higher operating agendas so as to drag out Makow and LaRouche again. It only took a couple of call and responses w/ Meiring to get at what you really wanted to get at (while basically misinterpreting - tantamount to ignoring - Israelirealities in the process) in order to bend the thread into a hook for dreams end or others. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>have you ever been to gouda? my favorite place in Holland, just love the way they wafer thin slice them cheeses for tasting.<hr></blockquote> Meiring – are you threatening to slice me up? Not been there, but have been in the neighborhood. A pilgrimage is order.

by **Gouda** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:14 am

IR: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>“Specifically here, in this board, it does feel like there is a presence to this polarization. It feels like the participants have a valid cultural debate, which includes the treatment of Isael/Palestine/Jews, and the issue is used or carried into the larger divisions. Thus, whatever comes up from me, say, is immediately "recruited" to either sides without actually being addressed. Namely, there is really no interest in listening but in warring over the issue…<hr></blockquote> Yes, I see that. We on the outside have the egos, leisure, and luxury to want to war...over anything. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>American liberals are another source of problem in that they project their problems and fears on Israel, and the heck with the actual ISraelis as far as they are concerned, as long as they feel good about themselves…<hr></blockquote> And what you said in another thread, something to the effect that americans are imperialists even in their 'freedom fighting'. That is provacative and I agree to an extent. What can be done by the likes of us, on the outside, that can be productive??? Do we need to be debating between 1947/48 or 1967, for example? Are groups like JATO (as opposed to Tikkun and JFP) helpful? What about divestment and boycotting? Do we need more Rachel Corries, or do we just need to take care of our own plot of land before we go out and "fix" it all up elsewhere?

by **israelirealities** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:37 am

Hey gouda, thanks. That's more like it, as far as what conversation about Israel should be. You ask a lot of GOOD questions, and I will return with answers, as to each and everyone of them. This is productive conversation where you people there can really give input on organizations "working for us", and make crucial distinctions between the variety of actors who all go under "liberal peace promoting Jewish organizations for Israel/Palestine". And there is the feed I, and others here, can send back on the Israeli referants these actors/organizations choose in israel as their reps. I will address divestment (with some links from local groups here about it) and the other questions once I'm back from errands today. Thank you again for just responding. ---- Off my hand, I am worried for the lack of info exchange on matters directly related to Israel. I benefitted A LOT from just getting validations, and seeing the connections between the evildoers in the two countries. I liked the term "open intelligence" re this board. Give you an example, there was the Trojan Horse scandal here (still ongoing) when a huge computer abuse was discovered, a special program that allows the perps to actually kind of break in the "DNA" of your PC etc. Nobody really understands what actually happened and why in fact it was discovered (lawsuits are now filed among the corporations involved, and several very high profile detectives, mostly ex police, military police and security personnel, were arrested and are charged). I browsed this board and there was brief mention of some "cryptology competition" between Israel and US technology re this menace. I will read it sometime when I have time, but this is the kind of "pieces in the puzzle" i feel is crucial for our democratic survival here. We are in the dark as far as the most important things in our life here, privacy, testing of weapons and much more that has direct bearing on life/death of many. I am also sure that the other way, namely, info coming from ISrael to the USA can be of some, not as big, assistance with unlocking plots and misuses of power by government and corporations. Simply stated, since our respective government cooperate in oppressing the citizens, it follows that exchanging info among the citizens can be very useful and very undesired to them, who rely on insulation of brainstorming. just a thought. But will answer your political questions when back.

by **slimmouse** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:41 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You post this news in order to instigate a look at the world through the eyes of “Makow and co”.<hr></blockquote> A completely and utterly disingenuous assertion. And you still havent answered my question re Makows take on this. Possibly because you dont even know what Makows take is ? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It only took a couple of call and responses w/ Meiring to get at what you really wanted to get at (while basically misinterpreting - tantamount to ignoring - Israelirealities in the process) in order to bend the thread into a hook for dreams end or others.<hr></blockquote> Another one telling people of my non existent intentions. Thanks for showing me down. I got to see your hand too remember. I'll tell you what. YOU Go read Tarpley. Im with him 100% on this. Forget Makow, Larouche, and 2 mouse clicks. What does Tarpley say about who the real elites are ? Might I also remind you, that I took the thread on from the original posting to speak of the way the Israelis are being used by the international elites. Its you who turned That commentary into something that it isnt, simply because I hoped to solicit a response from elsewhere. As for the Isreali Palestine issue. Ive said my peice often enough. If Israel truly wants peace, she needs to act like a country that wants peace. But of course thats a lot easier said than done, when the game is already so intensely fixed both logistically and hence psychologically, and when she is essentially controlled by people who dont have a peaceful bone in their bodies. And finally JVP. Why not Try a trial subscription to their newsletter before you dissect them. Have a look at what theyre actually saying, rather than once again dissecting one amidst their many messengers. I put that to everyone, lest they be effectively ignored courtesy of a phone call by some guy. THEIR MESSAGE IS PEACE. Did you know that Gouda ? I do. I read it every single newsletter.

The silence is deafening.

Re: vile racists

sum

confusion

Re: Makow, Larouche, anti-Semitism

red herrings

ummmmmmm

Politically Acceptable

Re: totally un Acceptable

true colours

Re: vile racists

Ad Boogie

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Re: Libs

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