"The Lesser Of Two Evils"...Why, Obama Isn't That Bad!

[compared2what?]

Most of the time, there's practically not a realistic reason even to expect who's president to change much of anything that has a direct (or even perceptible) immediate impact on the lives of the vast majority of (real or theoretical) eligible voters. The office just doesn't come with the powers to do that attached to it. And it would be pretty scary if it did.

That doesn't mean that who gets elected won't change the conditions under which you personally and the country generally live and die. For better and/or worse. And it might not mean that it doesn't matter whether you vote or not, depending on how things are going and where you live.

I mean, let's say that right now you want fairer elections, better candidates and more accountability for both at the federal, state, and/or local level. There are obviously more obstacles to that right now than voting in this (or any) presidential election can overcome. But most of the ones that are presently the most immovable by the will of the people are there right now because since 1980, Republicans have packed the federal bench when their guy's in office and blocked nominees when he wasn't. They're still doing it. For example, that's where what ultimately became the Citizens United ruling came from. And I'm sure they'll continue to do it.

From that point of view, it's virtually a certainty that the thing you want made better (elections, candidates, blah, blah, blah) will get worse for a lot longer than just four or eight years if Romney wins. Whereas if Obama wins, they'll either stay the same or improve very, very slightly. So. As far as this presidential election only goes, it's the lesser of two evils defined, basically. Despite which, how and whether people vote in this or any other presidential election in their voting-eligible lifetimes makes a significant difference.

I'm not saying vote or don't vote, btw. I'm just saying that if you don't vote because it's your belief that it won't change anything at all, you're mistaken. It totally might not change anything you care about, obviously. But that's a different problem.

[dada]

I'm so sick of the blame the non voter bit. How come I never see any discussion about how Obama squandered all the good will and momentum he had, and that's why you lesser of two evil voters find yourselves in the mess you're in?

I mean there's not even an attempt to say "we're sorry, we know our guy fucked up, but we really need you."

It doesn't matter anyway, I don't want to get into the psychology of it. Good luck, but you're on your own this time.

[ninakat]

You've all probably read or heard this before, but given the context of what dada was saying (which I agreed with, of course), I couldn't pass up the opportunity to revisit the late, great George Carlin's astute and wickedly good reasoning (emphasis mine)....

George Carlin: “I don't vote. Two reasons. First of all it's meaningless; this country was bought and sold a long time ago. The shit they shovel around every 4 years *pfff* doesn't mean a fucking thing.

Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.”

[Nordic]

it's virtually a certainty that the thing you want made better (elections, candidates, blah, blah, blah) will get worse for a lot longer than just four or eight years if Romney wins. Whereas if Obama wins, they'll either stay the same or improve very, very slightly.

Hmm, let's see, now. Under Bush, the president still couldn't legally assassinate me. Nor could he legally throw me away into a dungeon for the rest of my life without a trial.

Under Obama, he now can.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's a fucking FALLACY to think that things won't get worse under a D, or that they'll get worse slower, or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to say. A FALLACY.

We all would have been far better off had George Bush seized the Presidency, called off all elections, and declared himself El Presidente for Life. Because then we would fucking know what we're up against. It would be clear. Instead, no, they gave us the charming good-looking black guy. He's so cool! He's black! He must be on our side!

Fuck that shit.

[justdrew]

it's virtually a certainty that the thing you want made better (elections, candidates, blah, blah, blah) will get worse for a lot longer than just four or eight years if Romney wins. Whereas if Obama wins, they'll either stay the same or improve very, very slightly.

Hmm, let's see, now. Under Bush, the president still couldn't legally assassinate me. Nor could he legally throw me away into a dungeon for the rest of my life without a trial.

Under Obama, he now can.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's a fucking FALLACY to think that things won't get worse under a D, or that they'll get worse slower, or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to say. A FALLACY.

We all would have been far better off had George Bush seized the Presidency, called off all elections, and declared himself El Presidente for Life. Because then we would fucking know what we're up against. It would be clear. Instead, no, they gave us the charming good-looking black guy. He's so cool! He's black! He must be on our side!

Fuck that shit.

I've got bad news. Before Obama, the President could do all those things. Now there's a legal framework in which such activities are conducted and perhaps most importantly, acknowledged publicly. Before, you say the president can do such things, people would have said yer a nutso conspiracy theorist. Now it's a fact. Which just might, put us on the road to actually preventing such governmental activities.

Anyway, that's the glass-half full view of the situation, or perhaps it's just my attempt to redefine an empty glass as being merely infinitesimally full.

[compared2what?]

it's virtually a certainty that the thing you want made better (elections, candidates, blah, blah, blah) will get worse for a lot longer than just four or eight years if Romney wins. Whereas if Obama wins, they'll either stay the same or improve very, very slightly.

Hmm, let's see, now. Under Bush, the president still couldn't legally assassinate me. Nor could he legally throw me away into a dungeon for the rest of my life without a trial.

Under Obama, he now can.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's a fucking FALLACY to think that things won't get worse under a D, or that they'll get worse slower, or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to say. A FALLACY.

Of course it's a fallacy. It would be a ridiculous thing to assert.

I was just talking about that one narrow consideration as a way of saying it makes a difference who's in office but not in ways that are very earth-shaking at any particular moment.

That's not a defense or endorsement of the world, the system, the Democrats or any other fucking thing. It's just an undramatic truth about presidential elections. That's all.

[compared2what?]

I'm so sick of the blame the non voter bit. How come I never see any discussion about how Obama squandered all the good will and momentum he had, and that's why you lesser of two evil voters find yourselves in the mess you're in?

I mean there's not even an attempt to say "we're sorry, we know our guy fucked up, but we really need you."

It doesn't matter anyway, I don't want to get into the psychology of it. Good luck, but you're on your own this time.

I wasn't blaming anybody. It makes the kind of difference I described. And I personally don't decide whether to vote or not in accordance with my (non-existent) lesser-of-two-evils principles. So please quit calling me names that are based on some kind of us/them, in-crowd/suckers, sheeple/awake beliefs about the electorate that have nothing to do with me or what I said that you didn't read into it.

Thanks.

[dada]

Compared2what, I understand that our posts were next to each other and that may have lead to some confusion, but I was not addressing you. You were very clear that you weren't blaming anyone, and not saying to vote or not to vote.

To make it easier from here on, if I'm addressing you I will make it super clear. To tell you the truth, though, I probably will do that as little as possible. For some reason I feel the thin walls of my sanity bending whenever we interact. Even now I can start to hear the sound of coocoo birds circling around my head. All I can guess is there is some strange volatile energy as a result of our astrological chemistry or something. I really don't care to figure it out. There's no reason why we can't co-exist along side each other on this board. Let's just do that.

[JackRiddler]

Hmm, let's see, now. Under Bush, the president still couldn't legally assassinate me. Nor could he legally throw me away into a dungeon for the rest of my life without a trial.

Bullshit.

[compared2what?]

Compared2what, I understand that our posts were next to each other and that may have lead to some confusion, but I was not addressing you. You were very clear that you weren't blaming anyone, and not saying to vote or not to vote.

To make it easier from here on, if I'm addressing you I will make it super clear. To tell you the truth, though, I probably will do that as little as possible. For some reason I feel the thin walls of my sanity bending whenever we interact. Even now I can start to hear the sound of coocoo birds circling around my head. All I can guess is there is some strange volatile energy as a result of our astrological chemistry or something. I really don't care to figure it out. There's no reason why we can't co-exist along side each other on this board. Let's just do that.

Totally appreciate, applaud and salute your saying the above clearly, honestly and without extras. And also admire it. And respect it, too.

So thanks. I'll do my best to comply. Feel free to let me know if I don't. And sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.”

Great riff but doesn't hold up to logic. He is, at the very least, just as responsible.

[dada]

Thank you for your kind response, compared2what. I think you may have banished my cucoo birds with that one!

I only want to add that sometimes internet personalities clash in ways that the corresponding real life personalities never would. I'd be willing to bet this is one of those cases.

[Hunter]

There is a freaking HUGE difference between the two candidates, you can say there is not but there is. Yes Obama has done and will continue to do, some really bad and evil shit but if Romney is elected there is going to be millions of mentally ill, disabled and poor people who are going to find a lot of the services they depend on to survive, not available to them anymore, this is a REAL THREAT that they WILL CARRY OUT and it is no small fucking matter.

Those of you who are encouraging others not to vote or take part in the process because it is a sham are only helping Romney and hurting those who need that help and those services, you talk about "throwing yourselves in to the cog of the machine" as being the only way to effect real change but that is not what you are doing when you dont vote, you are just sitting at home on your buts complaining on the internet and not doing anything real and noteworthy to help create that change that you want so badly, I probably am not doing much to that effect either by voting for Obama but at least those who need that social safety net many of them being the kind of people I work for and help in my law practice, I am at least doing something to prevent them from starving, going without medical care and the prescriptions they need to remain stable and alive.

You really need to consider what you are doing, Obama is not perfect, far, far from it, but at least he wont take away the help from those who need it most.

[Nordic]

Those of you who are encouraging others not to vote or take part in the process because it is a sham are only helping Romney

Wow! I had no idea I was SO POWERFUL.

I'll have to reconsider, given this information.

[Hunter]

I am really glad it is a big joke to so many people, what that tells me is that you dont need the social safety net that many million others do, and that is a great thing, I am glad you dont have to depend on the government to survive, but a lot of people do and if you were one of them this would not be a fucking joke it would be a very serious matter.