The 2012 "Election" thread

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:14 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:
Rory wrote:you just know you hate him, don't fully understand why


Oh yes I do.


I think you do. You can recognize a fellow actor, especially a bad one.

I think a lot of people don't, however.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:30 am

JackRiddler wrote:…This on a board where pretty much everyone thinks 9/11 was an inside job executed by officials in the Bush regime. It's like you're asking for a new 9/11 and a new quantum leap for fascism.…


I hope that this is not accurate. I don't believe it is.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby psynapz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:59 am

Thanks for the acknowledgements... now to restate my point:

So Jack, does a third-party candidate stand a better chance of getting in next time than this time if we all just vote safely anti-Romney this time, thus further legitimizing the binary condition of the race, simply because it ensures more fertile conditions for us to perform more effective local grassroots work towards legitimizing third party candidacy next time, as afforded by a safely non-Romney administration this time? I admire your global historical/current-events knowledgebase and your ability to apply it broadly in context, so I'm wondering what precedent this logic pattern, writ large, may enjoy from recent success elsewhere in the world that could be attributable to such a strategy?

I can't help but want to just drop all the fucked up and bullshit system-legitimizing behavior and walk the other way, knowing that I'm on the right side of history and that eventually history will follow, and whoever is inspired by watching me walk past them the other way may be so emboldened as to follow in time, as they are able, until we can self-legitimize real democracy, and I can tell my kids I was part of the solution. :fawked:

[Edited to add what turned into a whole new post, and since this one has already been responded to by Jack, I'm going to post it separately instead.]
Last edited by psynapz on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:14 pm

I thought I'd answered that but maybe it will help to be shorter.

psynapz wrote:So Jack, does a third-party candidate stand a better chance of getting in next time than this time if we all just vote safely anti-Romney this time, thus further legitimizing the binary condition of the race, simply because it ensures more fertile conditions for us to perform more effective local grassroots work towards legitimizing third party candidacy next time, as afforded by a safely non-Romney administration this time?


I see and respect what you are saying. And I differ. I don't think the this-time third-party result makes any difference whatsoever in future third-party results, any more than Perot's or Nader's past performances have had an impact on subsequent elections. Okay, if it were 10+ percent, maybe, but the Greens aren't set up for that. They maybe have 10% recognition, period. So I think a slightly higher share for them will have a pretty much zero effect.

The ability to organize a third party on the ground in the four years prior to an election (or prior to state elections, where the breakthrough is likelier) would be everything. I think that's more influenced by the main election result (i.e., better conditions under Obama for organizing) than by Jill Stein's vote total. Unfortunately, I also think that's more influenced by the ability to raise a few hundred million dollars toward building an effective third-party challenge that is cohesive and present in every state, in every statehouse district, in every Congressional district. (In my view, the only thing that might break the power of money without having money would be a pure coming-together of the Thirds into a single coalition with the sole same set of goals: money out of politics and election reform. No other issues.)

Also, I think the system is rigged so that everything you could possibly do legitimizes it -- in my view, not voting is definitely more of a legitimation than voting. (As I said earlier, the ruling class would have no problems with 10% turnout, long as it was one of theirs winning, and the winner would call it a mandate, and the media would go along. In the absence of popular tumult, that is.) You're probably right that third-party is less of a legitimation than lesser-evil, but at what cost, if it enables the greater evil?

I admire your global historical/current-events knowledgebase and your ability to apply it broadly in context, so I'm wondering what precedent this logic pattern, writ large, may enjoy from recent success elsewhere in the world that could be attributable to such a strategy?

I can't help but want to just drop all the fucked up and bullshit system-legitimizing behavior and walk the other way, knowing that I'm on the right side of history and that eventually history will follow, and whoever is inspired by watching me walk past them the other way may be so emboldened as to follow in time, as they are able, until we can self-legitimize real democracy, and I can tell my kids I was part of the solution. :fawked:


I can totally understand this and will not attempt to argue for it or persuade you otherwise, even if it's not quite where I am at the moment.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby psynapz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:12 pm

JackRiddler wrote:I thought I'd answered that but maybe it will help to be shorter.

Meh, we're all just repeating ourselves here, even when we're not, really. :shrug:

JackRiddler wrote: (In my view, the only thing that might break the power of money without having money would be a pure coming-together of the Thirds into a single coalition with the sole same set of goals: money out of politics and election reform. No other issues.)

Teriffic... any ideas on what kind of grassroots (or shit, world-stage) situationist-ish crises we can create/amplify to exponentialize the visibility of these issues, beyond that which will occur naturally as a result of increasingly-obvious problems created by the continuation of these broken systems? Once we get money out of politics and replace the electoral system, we've got a human die-off to prevent, so we have to get on the motherfucking bus here, quick.

JackRiddler wrote:You're probably right that third-party is less of a legitimation than lesser-evil, but at what cost, if it enables the greater evil?

Assuming it does. You don't want to assume that increasingly-successful third party presidential campaigning has a cumulative self-benefit election-over-election, but you assume here that the greater evil is enabling the worst likely-to-win candidate this time vs. enabling the syndicate to effortlessly reinforce their primacy in the minds of the voting public. Neurons that fire together wire together, so fewer of the youngsters paying attention this time will be inclined to support a challenge to the syndicate's primacy next time, I posit. Great evil to be sure, but I'll concede that they won't get Iran bombed or make the poor poorer, sicker and shorter-lived in the process. I'm just not comfortable assuming that's more evil than letting the shakedown continue. :confused

I can totally understand this and will not attempt to argue for it or persuade you otherwise, even if it's not quite where I am at the moment.[/quote]
What the hell?? Kerry didn't even throw in the towel that fast... dude, say what you think. We're dissecting post-OWS political philosophy here, for everybody's sake. Have at it.

Do you figure it's unrealistic to expect to start a walk-the-other-way movement when there's so many little hip-checks and intra-system plays you can execute instead, to shift the game using the game's own terms, and experience the cyclic rejuvenation of your motivation through such small-win successes rather than risk a sense of long-term failure and ineffectiveness through a series of nothing but pie-in-the-sky failures, or does it have more to do with your current political geography and resulting opportunities for you in particular, despite your heart-of-hearts ideal? Fascinated to hear.

What would you (anybody here) say, then, would be the most effective use of our progressive movement-organizing creative energies to make a third-party candidacy viable someday for any sane, rational, qualififed and charismatic anti-fascist who dares to run against the duopoly? Remember the energy of the Obama campaign? The constructive mass-mobilization? The pop art? The satellite photos of streets flooded with people? The cult-like and the pragmatic adulation both? I'm not seeing that for Jill Stein (pretty and smart as she is, she's lacking the neuro-linguistic primaries-crowd-mindfuck skills that apparently create movementbots), so unless there's a silent majority out there that's gonna rear their beautiful head on election day to everyone's batshit surprise, she's only going to drive a little green wedge into the system that may/may not be able to be leveraged by any outsiders come four years out. So, if there's no point in adding to the size of that wedge this time at the risk of fucking over the whole world by helping more overt fascists to win the executive, how do we create that kind of push behind a person, a ticket, when our ideals (money out of politics / radical electoral reform) are antithetical to the system we're trying to push them into?

If Obama is re-elected despite, nobody's gonna care about the Republican election fraud that takes place, despite... but the sick-sad losing voters are going to be driven madder than a monkey eating hot wings, thus raising the bar even higher next time for breaking through the binary syndicate from beneath, in sufficient fearless numbers, as far as I can tell.

If the Them are really serious about a Romney victory, then no amount of progressive vote-splitting or vote-concatenating is going to beat the almighty insert caret, DEL key, numeric keypad combination operated by a network of election fraudsters while the AP sprays cover fire at the exit polls, and nobody can mobilize a bunch of pissed-of, increasingly-appalled, increasingly-horrified non-Republicans like the Democrats can. It's all they can do, but they do it sublimely.

So then, what do? OWS is all about those two goals you stated, Jack, but I'm not seeing their constitutional convention happening, and I'm not seeing the unions get behind some "occupy the ballot" ticket making a bid for the White House, I'm not even seeing them in the news where mass-reality is generated, and I'm not seeing Dylan Ratigan's efforts against money power really catch fire there either. Do we really have to start all this only locally and build up gradually, eroding the duopoly speck by speck, over the course of the next six decades until we can flood the streets at the drop of a hat in support of a meaningfully-progressive administration, all the meanwhile the drones keep flying, the browner people keep dying, and the beaches drown in a tide of refreshing icewater?

I hope I'm saying something here. I'm not quite sure, but it at least looks like I wrote a lot of words about something important. :thumbsup
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby psynapz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:30 pm

BTW Jack, just saw your "What are any of you doing?" thread after posting the above, so whatever is answerable by whatever you said there stands here, as far as I'm concerned. I just start typing and can't stop...
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:56 pm

CHANGE?: Condi Rice Joins Colin Powell Sticking Up for Current Administration – “Progressives” Cheer
Posted on October 26, 2012

by Scott Creighton

Yeah, that’s some “change” for you.

The abject stupidity brought on by a combination of hero worship and desperation is a sad thing to witness. These people railed against Rice as she lied to congress over and over again to justify a war of aggression in Iraq. All she had to do was go on Fox New and spin up the “Rightthink” on the war-monger Obama, and off we go… it’s all water under the bridge now and by that I mean the high moral ground of the “progressive” sheep at Think Progress.

The fake “progressive” (read as “deluded regressive”) readers over at the Center for American Progress’ online focus group and echo chamber, Think Progress, are literally cheering Condi Rice because she has come out and absolved the Obama White House and the Clinton State Department of all responsibility for the Sept. 11th Benghazi attack which left 4 Americans dead and was lied about for weeks by the administration.

(more vomit-inducing details)
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:16 pm

ninakat wrote: But I guess Chris Floyd, Glen Ford, Glenn Greenwald, Norman Pollack, and so many others cited in this thread and in the Fuck Obama thread, who have elucidated in detail, with full evidence, the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Obama that ARE worse than Bush, are simply misinformed and reading the facts wrong, just misinterpreting them because they've somehow been conditioned to hate Obama like rednecks do, just programmed with a different hateful meme. Yeah, that works.

:jumping:


There has been no documented case presented that the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by the Obama administration are "worse" than those committed by the Bush administration.

Remember this, from earlier in the thread?

Image

And remember this, from earlier in the recent past that we've all lived through?

    A Dossier on Civilian Victims of United States' Aerial Bombing of Afghanistan:
    A Comprehensive Accounting
    [revised]


    "What causes the documented high level of civilian casualties -- 3,000 - 3,400 [October 7, 2001 thru March 2002] civilian deaths -- in the U.S. air war upon Afghanistan? The explanation is the apparent willingness of U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into and drop bombs upon, heavily populated areas of Afghanistan."

    Professor Marc W. Herold
    Ph.D., M.B.A., B.Sc.

Okay then. Granted, they're not as scary looking as this one is:

Image

But that doesn't actually make the three-thousand-plus deaths racked up by Obama in four years of drone strikes worse than the three-thousand-plus civilian deaths racked up by Bush in just five months of cluster-bombing Afghanistan, to say nothing of the one-hundred-thousand-plus civilians he killed in Iraq.

Drone strikes and deaths from drone strikes have increased under Obama, as have civilian deaths in Afghanistan on a year-over-year basis if you don't count the people Bush killed during the fucking invasion that's the reason we're in the country to begin with.

So if -you focus exclusively on those metrics, there's some risk that Obama will look like a worse war criminal than Bush. But unless you do absolutely no thinking for yourself and/or exist in a state of near amnesia, it's pretty minimal. Because there's really no comparison.

_______________________

About twenty per cent of those Iraqi casualties were children, IIRC.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Seriously, ninakat, does your memory not extend back further than 2004?
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Project Willow » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:34 pm

DrVolin wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:The Bush mob were sovereign within the executive, and executed a revolutionary program. Obama is merely allowed.


That is the key difference. Romney will be a return to sovereignty.


What evidence do you have for that argument? Neither of you knows who exactly is pulling whose strings and how long those strings are. Nothing in my direct life experience during the last 4 years argues that there is some other group in charge now with its installed figurehead as Obama, as opposed to Bush, it's quite the opposite. It's the same people, and Obama was a brilliant political move because he made being Bush okay for progressives. Via Obama, the public was treated to a bit of lab work en masse, IMO.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Project Willow » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:43 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
c2w wrote:I mean, look at his cabinet. It's not his. He's a figurehead. Bill and Hillary are the ones running the show, imo.


Why leave out George and Poppy? It's all one ̶b̶̶i̶̶g̶ small happy family.


Sorry C2W, but that struck me as funny. Did you miss the photo ops of Poppy and Clinton a few years ago? Clinton is Poppy's little pet puppet and Poppy, like he is wont to do at times, just had to show off. Damn, I wish I could talk freely.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:50 pm

Project Willow wrote:
DrVolin wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:The Bush mob were sovereign within the executive, and executed a revolutionary program. Obama is merely allowed.


That is the key difference. Romney will be a return to sovereignty.


What evidence do you have for that argument? Neither of you knows who exactly is pulling whose strings and how long those strings are. Nothing in my direct life experience during the last 4 years argues that there is some other group in charge now with its installed figurehead as Obama, as opposed to Bush, it's quite the opposite. It's the same people, and Obama was a brilliant political move because he made being Bush okay for progressives. Via Obama, the public was treated to a bit of lab work en masse, IMO.


Thank you Project Willow for seeing the horrible reality. We can't fight the enemy if we're supporting him.

As noted in another thread, I'm ending my truce on blaming the Obamapologists and those who vote for him out of fear of Romney or for any other irrational justification.

+ + + + +

(see original for embedded links and emphases)

Paths of Resistance (I): The Refusal to Identify and Reject Evil
Arthur Silber, October 24, 2012

The essence of my argument in "Accomplices to Murder" is contained in these two paragraphs:

    As I have written before: "the claim of a 'right' to dispense death arbitrarily -- the claim that the State may murder anyone it chooses, whenever it desires -- constitutes a separate category altogether, a category of which this particular claim is the sole unit. When death is unleashed, all possibility of action is ended forever." For this reason -- and it is the only reason required -- it is not "perfectly rational and reasonable" to decide that "the evils of their candidate [Obama] are outweighed by the evils of the GOP candidate."

    There is no evil beyond the claimed "right" to murder by arbitrary edict, to murder anyone, anywhere, anytime. If you support this particular evil -- and if you vote for Obama, you support it -- then you will support anything.

The fuller argument will be found in the preceding article.

Almost all Americans remain blithely unaware of the meaning and implications of their government's unrestricted program of murder, a program which targets anyone the State chooses, for any reason it identifies -- or refuses to identify. To be precise, we should say that almost all Americans refuse to acknowledge the meaning and implications of the State's murder program. If the State can -- and does -- murder anyone it chooses, there is nothing it cannot do. It can order the torture of human beings, directly or indirectly. It can detain individuals indefinitely, even when they are never charged with any crime, and with no hope for release. The United States government already does all these things. When I say that if you support the evil of arbitrary murder, you will support anything, I am not exaggerating in any manner at all. I am stating precisely the nature of the evil to which so many people grant their approval.

To dispel any doubt on this point, you only need read an article dated October 23, 2012, about the State's murder program in the Washington Post. The article is preceded by this note:

    Editor’s note: This project, based on interviews with dozens of current and former national security officials, intelligence analysts and others, examines evolving U.S. counterterrorism policies and the practice of targeted killing. This is the first of three stories.

Given this identification of the article's sources, what I said about the NYT article concerning the government's Kill List is equally true of the Washington Post stories:

    [T]his in effect announces the identity of the article's true author: the author is the U.S. government, the State itself. Through these "advisers," the highest levels of the U.S. government have told the story they want to tell. And what is that story? It is simply this:

      The State is become death. Our target can be anyone we choose. Yes, this means you. No, there is nowhere to run.

    It is not every day that the State announces in the august pages of "the paper of record" that its primary program, the central mission to which it patiently and carefully devotes its vast resources, is the elimination of human life, wherever, whenever and to whatever extent it wishes.

Americans cannot legitimately claim ignorance of the immense evil being perpetrated by their government. They will not be able to claim, as others have tried to do in the past: "We never knew about the horrors that were being committed. How can you believe that we knew about that?"

Americans know all about it, in horrifying, endless detail. The State wants them to know. But the State knows that almost all Americans will refuse to admit what it means. Americans have chosen to sleepwalk blindly into the mouth of Hell. If these horrors should be practiced on a much broader scale, with the victims numbering in the many thousands, or even millions -- and depending on events, they well might be -- many Americans will no doubt plead ignorance despite the fact that the knowledge was freely and eagerly provided to them. They will ask for forgiveness. They should not be granted it, not by anyone who remains at all civilized, who is still human in the true meaning of that word.

Read the opening section of the Washington Post article:

    Over the past two years, the Obama administration has been secretly developing a new blueprint for pursuing terrorists, a next-generation targeting list called the “disposition matrix.”

    The matrix contains the names of terrorism suspects arrayed against an accounting of the resources being marshaled to track them down, including sealed indictments and clandestine operations. U.S. officials said the database is designed to go beyond existing kill lists, mapping plans for the “disposition” of suspects beyond the reach of American drones.

    Although the matrix is a work in progress, the effort to create it reflects a reality setting in among the nation’s counterterrorism ranks: The United States’ conventional wars are winding down, but the government expects to continue adding names to kill or capture lists for years.

    Among senior Obama administration officials, there is a broad consensus that such operations are likely to be extended at least another decade. Given the way al-Qaeda continues to metastasize, some officials said no clear end is in sight.

    “We can’t possibly kill everyone who wants to harm us,” a senior administration official said. “It’s a necessary part of what we do. . . . We’re not going to wind up in 10 years in a world of everybody holding hands and saying, ‘We love America.'"

I submit that this is the essence of horror. We have seen all this before.

These opening paragraphs, and the article in its totality, describe what we might term the bureaucratization of terror, the phenomenon that Hannah Arendt wrote about extensively. Always remember that what these "U.S. officials" and "senior Obama administration officials" are discussing is the murder of human beings, including the murder of entirely innocent human beings. But they speak of a "disposition matrix," and the "accounting of the resources being marshaled," in the manner that might be used to discuss office supplies. "Oh, dear, we need more paperclips. Staplers, too." "Hmm. This group of men -- there seem to be about ten or twelve of them -- seems to be engaged in a 'suspicious pattern of activity.' We'd better dispose of them."

The story refers to "a former U.S. counterterrorism official" who mentions "a disposition problem." He means the problem of what to do with all those the State places in the category of "everyone who wants to harm us," a category which the government steadily increases in number. As the stories about the Kill List make clear, the easiest method of "disposition" is murder. When they're dead, the State doesn't need to be concerned about "disposing" of them further.

Just as we have seen before -- if anyone cares to remember -- the State which is determined to unleash horror on an ever-increasing scale seeks to transform the horror into an everyday, ordinary matter of following procedure, of following the rules, of routine:

    Targeted killing is now so routine that the Obama administration has spent much of the past year codifying and streamlining the processes that sustain it.

Moreover, the Obama administration is determined to make the horror a matter of routine that can be easily followed by the U.S. government indefinitely:

    Less visible is the extent to which Obama has institutionalized the highly classified practice of targeted killing, transforming ad-hoc elements into a counterterrorism infrastructure capable of sustaining a seemingly permanent war. Spokesmen for the White House, the National Counterterrorism Center, the CIA and other agencies declined to comment on the matrix or other counterterrorism programs.

    Privately, officials acknowledge that the development of the matrix is part of a series of moves, in Washington and overseas, to embed counterterrorism tools into U.S. policy for the long haul.

    White House counterterrorism adviser John O. Brennan is seeking to codify the administration’s approach to generating capture/kill lists, part of a broader effort to guide future administrations through the counterterrorism processes that Obama has embraced.

Toward the end of the article, we read:

    For an administration that is the first to embrace targeted killing on a wide scale, officials seem confident that they have devised an approach that is so bureaucratically, legally and morally sound that future administrations will follow suit.

    During Monday’s presidential debate, Republican nominee Mitt Romney made it clear that he would continue the drone campaign. “We can’t kill our way out of this,” he said, but added later that Obama was “right to up the usage” of drone strikes and that he would do the same.

Regarding the bureaucratization of terror, Arendt is probably most famous for her analysis of this subject in connection with Nazi Germany. Just as many Germans later tried to claim that they, as "ordinary" Germans, knew nothing about the horrors practiced by the Nazi regime, many people have accepted the lie. Many people think that Germans would not have accepted, much less supported, the horrors if they had only known of them.

This is simply not true. It was not true in Nazi Germany; it is not true in the United States today. Germans knew all about the horrors -- and they accepted them, and often enthusiastically supported them. The same is true in America now.

Several months ago, in "Reflections on a Bestial Culture," I addressed this question in detail. In the last part of that series, I wrote:

    In the third part of this series, I offered my imagined version of a new history book which discussed events in Nazi Germany, focusing on the Nazis' consolidation and expansion of power in the pre-World War II period. My imagined book dealt with the extent to which knowledge of the Nazis' actions, including their systematic attacks on civil liberties in general -- and notably including details of Nazi brutality -- was available to the general public. The first sentence of my imagined history announced this general theme: "It perhaps astonishes us today, but newspapers often published accounts of these firebombings, raids and murders while the campaign of terror was still underway." The "gimmick" of my imaginary book was to replace Nazi justifications and explanations with those offered by U.S. officials, as detailed in the NYT article about Obama's "Kill List." I attempted to demonstrate the close parallels between Germans' acceptance of growing Nazi horrors and Americans' acceptance of our government's actions today.

I then discussed a remarkable and profoundly disturbing book by Robert Gellately, Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany. (As I explained, I hadn't been aware of Gellately's book when I wrote my imaginary history.) Part of the Amazon summary of the book reveals how Gellately unmasks this dangerous lie:

    Culling chilling evidence from primary news sources and citing dozens of case studies, Gellately shows how media reports and press stories were an essential dimension of Hitler's popular dictatorship. Indeed, a vast array of material on the concentration camps, the violent campaigns against social outsiders, and the Nazis' radical approaches to "law and order" was published in the media of the day, and was widely read by a highly literate population of Germans. Hitler, Gellately reveals, did not try to hide the existence of the Gestapo or of concentration camps. Nor did the Nazis try to cow the people into submission. Instead they set out to win converts by building on popular images, cherished ideals, and long-held phobias. And their efforts succeeded, Gellately concludes, for the Gestapo's monstrous success was due, in large part, to ordinary German citizens who singled out suspected "enemies" in their midst, reporting their suspicions and allegations freely and in a spirit of cooperation and patriotism.

A brief excerpt from Gellately's Introduction makes the point still more forcefully:

    I began research for this book by addressing one of the major questions that has been raised since 1945, when we became aware of the concentration camps, namely, 'what did they know and when did they know it?' Did the Germans know about the secret police and the camps, the persecutions, the murders, and so on, and did they go along? Germans have defended themselves by saying they were unaware of, or poorly informed about, the camps, and were surprised by the revelations at the war's end. There was close to general agreement among historians for a long time, that the Nazis deliberately and systematically hid what they were doing, so it was possible that ordinary people really did not know.

    This book challenges these views. It shows that a vast array of material on the police and the camps and various discriminatory campaigns was published in the media of the day. In the 1930s the regime made sure the concentration camps were reported in the press, held them up for praise, and proudly let it be known that the men and women in the camps were confined without trial on the orders of the police. The regime boasted openly of its new system of 'police justice' by which the Secret Police (Gestapo) and the Criminal Police (Kripo) could decide for themselves what the law was, and send people to the camps at will. The Nazis celebrated the police in week-long annual festivals across the country, and proudly chalked up their many successes in the war on crime, immorality, and pornography. Far from clothing such practices in secrecy, the regime played them up in the press and lauded the modernity and superiority of the Nazi system over all others.

My earlier article provides additional excerpts from Gellately.

This is precisely the technique now utilized by the U.S. government. Numerous government "officials" are cited in both the NYT and Washington Post articles. The government proudly describes its murder program (along with indefinite detention and many other horrors). It "boast[s] openly" about how it "codifies" and "streamlines" its system of murder without end. The American government "plays up" its "practices," and "laud[s] the modernity and superiority" of its "system over all others." As the Washington Post article expresses it: " officials seem confident that they have devised an approach that is so bureaucratically, legally and morally sound that future administrations will follow suit."

I repeat what I said earlier: the government wants Americans to know all about the horrors. It is increasingly eager to discuss its programs and to describe how it goes about murdering ever greater numbers of people. The government does this so that Americans become accustomed to the murders, precisely so that Americans regard the murders as a matter of routine, everyday business. I remind you of a crucially related point I made recently: In addition to pursuing its goal of global hegemony, the United States government uses foreign countries as a lethal laboratory in which to practice the techniques it intends to use domestically, at home within U.S. borders.

Yet most Americans refuse to identify the meaning of the government's actions. If they are aware of these horrors at all, they tell themselves that the government would never practice these horrors here at home, and certainly not against people like them.

These, too, are transparent and pathetic lies. I shall discuss these lies and related ones next time, when I will also turn to the nature and forms of resistance that are possible to us. For now, I emphasize the critical point: If the future should bring what are now unimaginable horrors, let no American ever be heard to say that he "never knew it would come to that." They know. They know about the horrors in detail; they are told about them repeatedly. They refuse to admit the meaning of what they know. If they did, they might feel they should resist the horrors -- and that is the one outcome they fear more than any other. Whatever may come, they do not want to have to take a stand. They do not want to have to choose.

But life is choice. We are always making a choice, even when we make strenuous, tortuous efforts to avoid it. At certain moments in history, to avoid choosing is the worst and most contemptible choice of all. At present, it is also the choice of most Americans.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:18 pm

Project Willow wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:
c2w wrote:I mean, look at his cabinet. It's not his. He's a figurehead. Bill and Hillary are the ones running the show, imo.


Why leave out George and Poppy? It's all one ̶b̶̶i̶̶g̶ small happy family.


Sorry C2W, but that struck me as funny. Did you miss the photo ops of Poppy and Clinton a few years ago? Clinton is Poppy's little pet puppet and Poppy, like he is wont to do at times, just had to show off. Damn, I wish I could talk freely.


I didn't mean to slight that angle, I respectfully half-disagree*** with Mac, in that I don't see George and Poppy as even being part of one small happy family. The Bill-C.-and-Poppy angle is actually a lot more like it, imo.

Anyway. I was really only thinking about George W., and there are some real differences there, wrt how policy affects body counts and the trillions spent killing them and so on. I should probably have specified that, though.
_____________

***But that means I half-agree, don't forget!
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:26 pm

I deleted the fit of uncharitable ill temper that was here because I didn't really mean it.

My apologies to those who read it.
Last edited by compared2what? on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Rory » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:36 pm

I have used all the allotted time and energy I have for this topic. So this is my last 'Obamapologists' post.

You see, I don't see anyone fully defending Obama: No-one claiming that he is a saint or an innocent.

I see several saying that the Romney might be better than Obama, (and some literally talking out of their posteriors, saying that Bush better than Obama!) - good work GOP marketing machine! I mean, to read that on here and not godlikeproductions (where the rabid and venomous, personalized hatred of Obama is on overdrive).

I see a lot of that venom spilling over into personalized attacks on the Obamabots. Which is nice. You are clearly so invested in the rightness of your position that you must defend it at all costs - including insulting the people that disagree with you.

I would counsel that such emotion occludes clear thinking - this is not a time for absolutes and divisive infighting. Don't you all have more important and better things to be doing and fighting that your own brothers and sisters? This personalized hatred of Obama comes from the right. It is sourced and fueled there - the construct of him into a object of hate and anger comes from their marketing and thinktanks. What better way to advance the GOP cause than if the left do their dirty work for him.

And the GOP? they are the only executive alternative right now. So there will be a Romney, or Obama presidency. Get down off your white person,angsty problem horse and admit that you have two choices (beyond whining like a spoiled child here): Vote one of 3 ways or don't.

If you don't vote Obama, you are voting for Romney - just so you know that. You are endorsing the GOP to restructure the EPA. You will be giving the individual states power to decide environmental regulations. Keystone pipeline - coming with Mittlers guarantee of permanent and irreversible hydrocarbon pollution of the Ogallala Aquifer. This shit is for ever

Fine for me and a couple of other is California. bad for y'all in those less populous, less enlightened Republican owned states.

You will be endorsing state application of healthcare and women's health legislation. Again, California will be fine. I feel sorry for the poor, rural women who are going to suffer.

I could go on, but then i would be flogging the same argumentative horse. Be just a little bit cynical, if that is what it takes. The GOP desperately wants to win. They and their candidate have lied relentlessly about everything. (No tax records!) He will rape and pillage the USA, given the endorsement to do so. They will cheat and steal ballots where they can - because the game is fixed? Because you know that they want to win so badly, leaving it up to the electorate is not enough.

But, I am out. Do as you will. have fun and all. maybe try being a bit nicer about it - It isn't like your fellow posters here want for bad things because they disagree with you. Relax and do as you feel is right. Just don't make too many decisions when you are so angry that you can't think straight.
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