Hollywood Scripting

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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:07 am

compared2what? wrote:
Alex Cox wrote:It explains how the work of a talentless boozer, Jackson Pollock, found its way into museums owned by the Rockefellers, and thence onto gallery walls all over the US. Pollock's slap-dash canvases were bought and sold - at US taxpayers' expense - to show that American art was "better" than the crude naturalism which Russians supposedly preferred. Unfortunately, most Americans prefer crude naturalism, as do I: given a choice between a Pollock or a Norman Rockwell I would gaze on the Rockwell any day.


That's such an insane choice for someone who's objecting to mid-century American propaganda to make...

Again, this is a misinterpretation of what Cox is saying. What he is saying is "I'd rather eat shit..."

I understand how some of you might make that misinterpretation, though. I just found it ironic that barracuda--being one to defend the artistic merit of the propagandists--gets so hung up on the criticism of Pollock. So Cox doesn't like Pollock. It's beside the point. Again, that's a matter of taste.

The real point is that the hugely successful propagandists thrived whether they had initial immense popular appeal or not. Cox--like barracuda--thinks Searchers is a masterpiece. Indeed, is able to appreciate artistry where he feels it exists. But he is always quick to contextualize it for what it is.

Which brings me to the biggest point of the whole Patriotic cum HUAC > CIA/Defense Dept/Pentagon > faschist movement to fill heads with oh-so glory-gloriously beautiful poop:
IT IS TO THE EXCLUSION OF WHOLE LOT OF OTHER WORKS THAT MIGHT OCCUPY A MORE MEANINGFUL PLACE OTHERWISE.

To take just one fairly early example, because it has gained cult notoriety over the last decade since Scorsese's paean to HH:
Why Suppress Salt of the Earth?
http://www.hu.mtu.edu/~smbosche/courses/read/2.htm
Meanwhile, Congressman Donald Jackson of California, a member of the Committee [House Committee on Un-American Activities], quoted Hearst columnist Victor Riesel in Congress, warning that Communists were making a picture close to the atomic testing grounds of Los Alamos: the subversives’ proximity to secret weapons was deemed ominous. (Jackson, who was determined to quash the movie, which he called “a new weapon for Russia,” also noted that the film company had “imported two auto carloads of colored people for the purpose of shooting a scene of mob violence”—it didn’t occur to him that the black arrivals were actually film technicians.) Other technicians and laboratories declined to work on the sound and film developing; the Pathe laboratories withdrew from the film processing. Distributors boycotted the movie; even after ten years’ litigation, the producers failed in their efforts to enforce antitrust laws against the suppression of their film. Roy Brewer had assured Congressman Jackson that the Hollywood AFL Film Council would do "everything” possible to prevent Salt of the Earth from being exhibited, and projectionists and theater owners who were members of Brewer’s union would not show it. The American Legion forestalled a number of bookings. Still, the movie had sporadic engagements in ten cities. Those who saw it in Los Angeles were urged to park far from the theater because FBI agents were said to be collecting license plate numbers from cars in the lot beside the movie house.


The game has gotten a lot more sophisticated since those heady days of the cold war, ladies and gentlemen. Alternate views on politics and art are so marginalized that the likes of George Clooney are considered to be iconoclasts in spite of their service to the big machine.
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby yathrib » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:46 pm

Whatever one may think of Rockwell as an artist, he was a New Deal era lefty who would be regarded as a naive hippie commie fool by today's standards. And he wasn't deep, but he was a master of technique. My mom always has calendars with his illustrations, and like it or not, there's always a ton of visual interest in even his most mundane illustrations.
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby barracuda » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:16 pm

Spiro C. Thiery wrote:I just found it ironic that barracuda--being one to defend the artistic merit of the propagandists--gets so hung up on the criticism of Pollock. So Cox doesn't like Pollock. It's beside the point. Again, that's a matter of taste.


Pollock wasn't a propagandist, though. Quite the opposite. To quote Saunders quoting an agency man involved in the Congress for Cultural Freedom:

most of them were people who had very little respect for the government, in particular, and certainly none for the CIA. If you had to use people who considered themselves one way or another to be closer to Moscow than to Washington, well, so much the better perhaps.


The CCF picked the abstract expressionists in order to showcase their freedom of expression vis-à-vis the narrow social realism of the Soviets. So I don't really understand why Cox had to go out of his way to insult Pollock. It was a needless throwaway, but I agree that it's beside the point in the context of this thread. Some people enjoy meditating upon great paintings, other people would rather spoon turds. It's just a matter of taste. There's no real difference we can discriminate between the two activities via any historical or formal analyses available to us while remaining at all objective.

:tongout

Cox should know better than most that film is an inherently undemocratic artform. Its expense and the requirements of the system of distribution renders it so. Film has always depended upon the largess of capitol for its production and popularity. You might as well fret about the lack of revolutionary socialist themes in Broadway musicals. Because all in all, at least in this country, film as a medium belongs to the 1%, exists to make them money and tell their stories, and pretty much always has. It's a fucking carnival novelty full of boxing cats and sneezes that was quickly turned into a sales tool and has basically remained one ever since. There are anomalous exceptions - a very, very few. Which is why I tend to look for the silver [screen] linings in the medium that can be found, and take what little promise there is and point to it. I'm certainly under no illusion that film is a "people's medium" or something.

And this is the perspective that allows me to leave a film having seen more then the expression of capitol's desires upon my retina: at some point it's all either just a trick of the flickering lights, or has some purpose and quality that has power. Either the art part of the films has a power along with the sales and the propaganda part or it or none of it does. You can't have it both ways. The propaganda cannot have more power than the art that tends to acts as its carrier wave. The morality and aesthetics of great films must contain all the resonance and effect that the propaganda has or the deception wouldn't work as well as it does.

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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:58 pm

I like Pollock. I like Rockwell. Good illustrator. I'd rather live with a Pollock (painting, that is). I guess my aesthetics are largely in line with barracuda's. Rockwell clearly understood himself as a propagandist. Pollock no doubt didn't, but was used unwittingly for a while as propaganda.

Now can we get past Alex Cox's misguided paragraph on an issue irrelevant to the discussion here?

Because it seems to me more important if government agencies or other institutions of power covertly influence, initiate or steer artistic production (and media in general, obviously). Regardless of the aesthetic value of the resulting works. And message matters. A great work can still be a lying work, and that diminishes it.

barracuda wrote:You might as well fret about the lack of revolutionary socialist themes in Broadway musicals.


There have been times and places when this was otherwise. That matters.

I'm certainly under no illusion that film is a "people's medium" or something.


Today more than ever, actually. With all the bad and good that this entails.

Now please add "capitol" for "capital" to the eggcorns thread, will you?
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby Luther Blissett » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:15 pm

Nordic wrote:I always thought it would be great to have a serious thread about this subject without HMW mucking it up. Maybe some day we can. Obviously spook agencies have some involvement in Hollywood. Just look at Zero Dark Thirty. And having finally seen Dark Knight Rises I'm starting to wonder about Christopher Nolan. But the article quoted above might as well have been written by Hugh.


Has anyone here seen Zero Dark Thirty? I don't have any conscious friends who have yet.

Are we supposed to take that the Department of Defense's purported anger at the film is all a distraction used to lend even more credibility to the propaganda?
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:35 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:Has anyone here seen Zero Dark Thirty? I don't have any conscious friends who have yet.


Please no. My impression is that it has flopped. Inshallah.

Now in its second week, ranks #21 out of 42 on the Dec. 28-30th box office list at http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/, with receipts down and total gross at 1.37 million.

21 Zero Dark Thirty Sony $315,000 -23.2% 5 - $63,000 $1,368,000 - 2

With everyone knowing the CIA and Seals helped out, this is an example of overt assistance, of course.

It's entertainment for a pretty select demographic of liberal militarists who like to stroke it in print.

CORRECTION!

Those numbers are only from 5 theaters and thus very good. It hasn't opened nationally yet. Sorry.

Are we supposed to take that the Department of Defense's purported anger at the film is all a distraction used to lend even more credibility to the propaganda?


Probably just factional and a bunch of Republican yang-yanging in the Benghazi vein.
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby compared2what? » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:17 pm

Spiro C. Thiery wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
Alex Cox wrote:It explains how the work of a talentless boozer, Jackson Pollock, found its way into museums owned by the Rockefellers, and thence onto gallery walls all over the US. Pollock's slap-dash canvases were bought and sold - at US taxpayers' expense - to show that American art was "better" than the crude naturalism which Russians supposedly preferred. Unfortunately, most Americans prefer crude naturalism, as do I: given a choice between a Pollock or a Norman Rockwell I would gaze on the Rockwell any day.


That's such an insane choice for someone who's objecting to mid-century American propaganda to make...

Again, this is a misinterpretation of what Cox is saying. What he is saying is "I'd rather eat shit..."

I understand how some of you might make that misinterpretation, though. I just found it ironic that barracuda--being one to defend the artistic merit of the propagandists--gets so hung up on the criticism of Pollock. So Cox doesn't like Pollock. It's beside the point. Again, that's a matter of taste.


Since that text is easily at least as capable of being read as meaning "I prefer the low art of Norman Rockwell to the high art of Jackson Pollock" as it is "I'd rather eat shit," I don't think it would even be fair for Cox himself to call either take on it a "misinterpretation." There's room for disagreement because that's the way he wrote it.

....

If he's saying he'd rather eat shit, though...Hm. Please believe that this is a neutral not a combative question, since that's what it is. But I guess I'm now actually, not sure that I understand what you're saying you think he's saying.

Do you read it as meaning "I'd rather eat shit than look at the work of a propagandist"? Or "I'd rather eat shit than look at the art of Jackson Pollock, in whose work I see no value"?

Because the former isn't just a matter of taste. But the latter is so totally beside the point that I can't see why he would even have bothered saying it. I mean, it's such a hackneyed way of identifying yourself as a just-plain-folks type of a guy that there's a fucking Norman Rockwell painting of it. IOW: It's an inherently jingoistic sentiment.

The real point is that the hugely successful propagandists thrived whether they had initial immense popular appeal or not. Cox--like barracuda--thinks Searchers is a masterpiece. Indeed, is able to appreciate artistry where he feels it exists. But he is always quick to contextualize it for what it is.


Not in the piece about Tony Scott he's not. Besides which, Pollock wasn't a propagandist. Furthermore -- again, depending on which of the two "I'd-rather-eat-shit" interpretations you subscribe to -- Cox either )a) doesn't contextualize his aesthetic scorn for Pollock's painting; or (b) isn't actually making a point that's just a matter of taste.

....

Honestly, on the same terms, I'm not sure I even understand what your problem with barracuda's post was. I mean, whether it's about rejecting stuff purely as a matter of taste OR about seeing artistic merit in propagandistic works, why is it okay for Cox and not barracuda?
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:30 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
barracuda wrote:I'm certainly under no illusion that film is a "people's medium" or something.

Today more than ever, actually. With all the bad and good that this entails.

Exactly. It is the consumer-people's medium (bad) and with the advent of cheap digital micro-production, the small-filmmaker's medium (good).

JackRiddler wrote:
barracuda wrote:Cox should know better than most that film is an inherently undemocratic artform. Its expense and the requirements of the system of distribution renders it so. Film has always depended upon the largess of capitol for its production and popularity. You might as well fret about the lack of revolutionary socialist themes in Broadway musicals.

There have been times and places when this was otherwise. That matters.

Precisely. It's no surprise that a filmmaker's desire for significant distro led to continued fealty to studio power even after the old contract system dissolved. But it's that very structure which lends itself to additional nefarious influence and control. The artform is infiltrated and compromised, the propaganda more refined and multifaceted,.

JackRiddler wrote:
Luther Blissett wrote:Are we supposed to take that the Department of Defense's purported anger at the film is all a distraction used to lend even more credibility to the propaganda?
Probably just factional and a bunch of Republican yang-yanging in the Benghazi vein.

I disagree. I think both the DOD and the GOP yang-yanging--while in part factional in nature--is mostly just a distractive cover for just how cozy a relationship all the players in the complex enjoy.
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:39 pm

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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby compared2what? » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:56 pm

JackRiddler wrote:Regardless of the aesthetic value of the resulting works. And message matters.
.

I agree. But how do you square that with this?

JackRiddler wrote: It doesn't matter whether the resulting works turn out to be good, or are ineffective as propaganda and therefore irrelevant, or subvert the intent.
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:16 pm

compared2what? wrote:
Spiro C. Thiery wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
Alex Cox wrote:It explains how the work of a talentless boozer, Jackson Pollock, found its way into museums owned by the Rockefellers, and thence onto gallery walls all over the US. Pollock's slap-dash canvases were bought and sold - at US taxpayers' expense - to show that American art was "better" than the crude naturalism which Russians supposedly preferred. Unfortunately, most Americans prefer crude naturalism, as do I: given a choice between a Pollock or a Norman Rockwell I would gaze on the Rockwell any day.

That's such an insane choice for someone who's objecting to mid-century American propaganda to make...

Again, this is a misinterpretation of what Cox is saying. What he is saying is "I'd rather eat shit..."
I understand how some of you might make that misinterpretation, though. I just found it ironic that barracuda--being one to defend the artistic merit of the propagandists--gets so hung up on the criticism of Pollock. So Cox doesn't like Pollock. It's beside the point. Again, that's a matter of taste.


Since that text is easily at least as capable of being read as meaning "I prefer the low art of Norman Rockwell to the high art of Jackson Pollock" as it is "I'd rather eat shit," I don't think it would even be fair for Cox himself to call either take on it a "misinterpretation." There's room for disagreement because that's the way he wrote it.

Cox was belittling an artist he did not respect from an artistic standpoint by drawing an unflattering comparison, as in, 'Heck, I'd even rather spend a day in the Kinkade store.' (which came right after the mention of Rockwell). I grant you that his feelings about Rockwell seem less than ambiguous, but when he gets to the Kinkade quip, I mean, to me, that's pretty unequivocal.

compared2what?" wrote:Do you read it as meaning "I'd rather eat shit than look at the work of a propagandist"? Or "I'd rather eat shit than look at the art of Jackson Pollock, in whose work I see no value"?

The latter. As to the first question, he has a long record of tolerance for propaganda from historical and artistic perspectives. His work is even informed by it.

compared2what?" wrote:
The real point is that the hugely successful propagandists thrived whether they had initial immense popular appeal or not. Cox--like barracuda--thinks Searchers is a masterpiece. Indeed, is able to appreciate artistry where he feels it exists. But he is always quick to contextualize it for what it is.

Not in the piece about Tony Scott he's not. Besides which, Pollock wasn't a propagandist. Furthermore -- again, depending on which of the two "I'd-rather-eat-shit" interpretations you subscribe to -- Cox either )a) doesn't contextualize his aesthetic scorn for Pollock's painting; or (b) isn't actually making a point that's just a matter of taste.

Sorry, the formulation "propagandists thrived.." was sloppy on my part. I meant those who actively diseminate it for such purposes. Pollock just happened to be a beneficiary. Anyway, Cox' distaste for Pollock here just happens to converge with his accounting for his popularity, that is, not relevant to the issue of Pollock's success being in large part due his being supported for purposes of propaganda.

Also, keep in mind that the piece is on Cox' personal blog. Articles he writes for places like the Guardian take a less personal tone and do more to contextualize the subject matter. Right or wrong, being a blog, I'm sure he expects that his readers are more aware of his personal history and context.

compared2what? wrote:Honestly, on the same terms, I'm not sure I even understand what your problem with barracuda's post was. I mean, whether it's about rejecting stuff purely as a matter of taste OR about seeing artistic merit in propagandistic works, why is it okay for Cox and not barracuda?

It was JackRiddler who expressed the conflict with the latter. Me, with his being ready to reject the substance of the entire post out of hand because of his stated artistic preferences.

All in all: Had I not posted it here--had Cox simply not criticized Pollock's work, this thread would be a couple pages shorter, at least.
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:19 pm

c2w?, je ne comprend pas. Seems to me the two quoted bits say basically the same thing. The message matters, whether or not the work delivering it is fine art. Also, it matters if that message is being covertly influenced by some PTB. (All this leaving aside legitimate critical debates about form being the content and vice-versa, which we can get into it usefully when discussing actual works.)
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby compared2what? » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:11 am

Spiro C. Thiery wrote:It was JackRiddler who expressed the conflict with the latter. Me, with his being ready to reject the substance of the entire post out of hand because of his stated artistic preferences.


Gotcha. You know what's funny, though? I didn't take that to be any more literally intended than you did Cox's remarks about Kincade.

All in all: Had I not posted it here--had Cox simply not criticized Pollock's work, this thread would be a couple pages shorter, at least.


Maybe. But four or five different posters probably just have come along and wasted them fighting over some entirely unrelated and possibly even less interesting tangential detail sooner or later. Or, you know...



,,,.The possibilities are limitless, really. It could have been worse.

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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby compared2what? » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:37 am

JackRiddler wrote:c2w?, je ne comprend pas. Seems to me the two quoted bits say basically the same thing. The message matters, whether or not the work delivering it is fine art. Also, it matters if that message is being covertly influenced by some PTB. (All this leaving aside legitimate critical debates about form being the content and vice-versa, which we can get into it usefully when discussing actual works.)


But the message isn't always entirely what the messenger intended to send.

....

Rats. I can't for the life of me think of an example that isn't (a) The Searchers; (b) abstract expressionism; or (c) even more deadly than either. You know what I mean, though, right?
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Re: Hollywood Scripting

Postby winston smith » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:32 pm

barracuda wrote:Strange, I always thought Invasion of the Body Snatchers was about...

Image

...McCarthyism.



Always makes me stop in my tracks when i see an image of Edie Sedgwick.

I believe Hugh is a a good person and I admire his passion for his subject.
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