Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:37 pm

c2w said: "Serial lying has not been proven, per your standards."

According to "a couple" of "law-enforcement officials", reported on NBC on Dec. 15: One day before the shooting, there was an altercation at the school between Adam Lanza and four school staff, three of whom he shot dead next day, while the lucky survivor was not at work that day. This altercation was being investigated by "state and federal" "law-enforcement officials".

That's already a pretty detailed scenario, right? An entire little five-character short story in itself. And it provides the beginning of a much-needed and blatantly lacking motive.

One day later, we were told that no such altercation ever took place.


At most, that would be one lie. (Logic.)

And it might be one. However. In order to be certain that's what it was, you would have to eliminate all other equally likely explanations. For example:

In the aftermath of the shooting (likely, given the date of the report) one or more of the (likely) numerous detectives on the case spoke to a number of people working at the school who reported AN altercation someone (or several someones) there had had with a young man there the day before. This information was widely and quickly circulated among LE officials generally, due to its legitimate potential as a lead. Upon learning of Adam Lanza's identity, they then thoughtlessly plugged it into what they already believed they knew, because detectives are frequently though not invariably jackasses with a very high propensity for that kind of vanity.

At about that point, one of them was reached by a producer from NBC, and (being a jack-ass with a high propensity for thinking he or she knew what was going on) injudiciously shared that version of events while speaking not-for-attribution and thus being at little-to-no risk for reprisal if wrong.

Later, a fact-checker contacted (phoned or wrote to) a second person who confirmed that the investigation had received and was working with that information while speaking not-for-attribution, which is traditional for fact-check stuff.

NBC now has "a couple" of "law enforcement officials"
_______________________

SHORTER VERSION:: Both the LE side and the media side jumped to conclusions about motive for self-interested reasons. And if that's what happeed, since neither side nor anybody else paid any serious penalty for it, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen again.

It might also have been a lie. But since it was retracted the next day, I'd be hard put to say what, if anything, anyone would have gained by telling it.
_________________________

More on law enforcement officials and their anonymity in a moment. Because my main point here is:

I DO NOT CLAIM THAT THE ABOVE OCCURRED.

MY CLAIM, WHICH HASN'T BEEN CONTESTED OR CHALLENGED IS THAT SERIAL LYING HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN.

Anyway: c2w, you are right that it is unclear exactly who is spreading disinformation.


I can't be. Because I never said that anyone was. Or that it was being spread.

It's possible.

That disinformation is being spread is indisputable.


.No. It's not. That unreliable and/or incorrect information has been spread is indisputable. How, why and by whom are all unknown.

Either NBC and others are inventing interviews with anonymous "law enforcement officials" that never actually took place, or else those unnamed "law enforcement officials" are deliberately spreading disinformation anonymously through the corporate media. All of them with complete impunity. (Why?)


It hasn't been established as deliberate, though it might have been. But even if it had, that wouldn't be enough to establish that it was disinformation, properly speaking.

That being so, I don't think it's possible to say why. You still have to get to what.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:49 pm

tl; difr (did in fact read)

In short, c2w, you won't accept "lies", and "disinformation" is also further than you will go. Can we agree to call them "untruths"? Do please tell, and I'll ransack the thesaurus for you if necessary. ("Slips"? "Errors"? "Counterfactual statements"....?)

Three examples of untruths spread by anonymous "law enforcement officials" and/or the corporate media:

1.Adam Lanza had an altercation with four people at the school one day before killing three of them.

2. Nancy Lanza was a teacher at the school.

3. Ryan Lanza dunnit, and his younger brother was in police in custody as a possible accomplice.

Serial untruths.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:50 pm

barracuda wrote:
Here's a written report of that altercation, published on December 15 at 8:09am, EST, via NBC US News, featuring Pete Williams' byline:

    The motive for the mass killing was unknown, but officials told NBC's Pete Williams that they were investigating a report that someone had an "altercation" with four staff members at the school on Thursday – three of whom were killed the next day.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12 ... e-say?lite


Dammit all to hell. Short-cuts are ALWAYS a waste of time. But apparently I will never ever learn that.

Fine.. Same hypothetical scenario I outlined without the serious act of irresponsibility on LE's part that putting Lanza's name into the report they were investigating would have represented.***

The Sun is just delivering the high-quality and discriminating news-reporting effort for which it's known the whole world over. Or, put another way, making absolutely zero attempt to talk to anybody or find out anything first-hand, or even to make a show of doing so.

So no explanation's really called for there.
__________________

***Honestly, I actually did a pretty good job of coming up with something that was in accord with the NBC report, considering that I didn't bother looking at or for it.

Creepy. Possibly even suspicious.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:04 pm

^^That is -- very, very obviously -- not a transcript of the NBC TV report I posted upthread.

So barracuda is merely trolling again. Quelle surprise.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:06 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:tl; difr (did in fact read)

In short, c2w, you won't accept "lies", and "disinformation" is also further than you will go. Can we agree to call them "untruths"? Do please tell, and I'll ransack the thesaurus for you if necessary. ("Slips"? "Errors"? "Counterfactual statements"....?)


I'd advocate calling them what they appear most to be on a case-by-case basis.

Three examples of untruths spread by anonymous "law enforcement officials" and/or the corporate media:

1.Adam Lanza had an altercation with four people at the school one day before killing three of them.


While both incorrect and untrue, there's not one iota of evidence that it was spread by law enforcement, thus stated. The Sun made an egregiously stupid error.

NBC appears to have been told by LE that an altercation at the school on 12/13 was being investigated.

Did it spread from there? Or did other outlets get that possibly true but ultimately inconsequential information too?

I guess it doesn't matter..

2. Nancy Lanza was a teacher at the school.

3. Ryan Lanza dunnit, and his younger brother was in police in custody as a possible accomplice.

Serial untruths.


It seems that they're both untrue. I don't know how serial they really are, though. Or how certainly attributable to law enforcement. Or how widely spread by them, if certainly attributable. I'll check.

The media sucks. Corporate and otherwise. That's very, very true. They don't really need law enforcement's help or guidance for that, though. It's just what they do.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:09 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:^^That is -- very, very obviously -- not a transcript of the NBC TV report I posted upthread.

So barracuda is merely trolling again. Quelle surprise.


It is Pete Williams' published report of the event he relayed verbally on The Today Show. I never characterized it as a transcription of any sort. I sort of assume the written, published information has a degree of accuracy I don't expect from The Today Show.
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby 82_28 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:22 pm

Long term, lifetime posters/mods here are obviously not trolls. We can obviously flame from time to time, but troll? No. They are personalities and we all have them. Quit wit da hate, yo and enjoy the ride where applicable.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11194
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:23 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:2. Nancy Lanza was a teacher at the school.


That originated as an AP wire report which stated:

    At least one parent said Lanza’s mother was a substitute teacher at the school. But her name did not appear on a staff list. And the official said investigators were unable to establish any connection so far between her and the school.

So it was never more than a rumor. I blame Twitter. And people. I blame people. They say stuff that's not even so. And to reporters no less!

3. Ryan Lanza dunnit, and his younger brother was in police in custody as a possible accomplice.


This has been explained ad nauseum. What's your source for the "younger brother accomplice" angle?
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:45 pm

WASHINGTON (AP) —

AP source: Suspect is 24; younger brother held

By PETE YOST | Associated Press – Fri, Dec 14, 2012..

A law enforcement official says the suspect in the Connecticut school shootings is 24-year-old Ryan Lanza and that his younger brother is being held for questioning as a possible second shooter. The law enforcement official says the boys' mother, Nancy Lanza, works at the school as a teacher.

The official also said Ryan Lanza's girlfriend and another friend are missing in New Jersey.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the official said the suspect is dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because the source was not authorized to speak on the record about the developing criminal investigation.


http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-suspect ... itics.html


What a remarkably detailed scenario (again)! My guess is that that poor law enforcement official tripped over with a cup of alphabet soup and AP misinterpreted the messy result. Because god forbid I should accuse anyone of lying, or even of spreading disinformation. Right?

Jesus christ almighty.

So exactly what did lead that anonymous "law enforcement official" to supply that experienced international news agency AP with such a truly remarkable yarn? Why did he drag Adam Lanza into it at all, after having identified Ryan as the killer? Why did he pretend that Adam was alive and in police custody? And what led AP to believe him? Who the hell was he?

It was all over the web. all over the world, so I'm not surprised you missed it.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:52 pm

In re: Sourcing to unnamed law enforcement officials by the media:

After December 15th or so, whenever you see that phrasing being widely used by everyone who uses the info, it probably means that they got it at a briefing from a spokesperson when singular ("law enforcement official") and from the same spokesperson plus a special expert guest at the briefing when plural. Someone from the ME's office or whatever, as appropriate.

It's an artifact of pool reportage as it usually occurs when some event triggers a much higher demand for information by the media than the LEA has the resources to meet. And it's a bad and unacceptable arrangement, imo. Pretty much one and only desirable thing it does is prevent the state from avoiding scrutiny by playing favorites. And, you know. Fine and good though that may be in theory (and, to some extent, in practice), the real risk of scrutiny occurring under any circumstance isn't so very goddamn high that.it's worth applauding.

The reason they do it on background is ostensibly (and in part actually) bureaucratic. But....You know what? But blah, blah, blah. That's what.

They can get away with saying it's that deal or no deal, basically. So they do.

Assuming that most really major fuck-ups would eventually be detectible (which isn't certain but also isn't blithely optimistic) they actually usually don't do too badly on that score, strictly speaking. It's just non-communication central, by definition. Very little information, dis-, mis- or otherwise gets spread.

____________________

^^I can't actually swear to it that they're doing that. So please don't take my word for it. It's my opinion, only.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:58 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:AP source: Suspect is 24; younger brother held


Okay, but realistically, the other two instances of "serial lying" originated as misspeakings and rumors. So we're down to a single instance in your "serial". And the idea that the suspect was Ryan came from the ID found in Adam's belongings and it was subsequently stated by his brother that Adam may have his ID. The girlfriend was later found unharmed. Any reasonable person can extrapolate just how this type of poor information got onto into the hands of the press knowing the events of Ryan Lanza's arrest and the urgency of the story. It fucking happens. It's a report from the day of the murders that was quickly cleared up. It's not really the foundation of a conspiracy, aside from the conspiracy of shitty journalism and publishing deadlines. Which is a very real thing, obviously.

Yes, you have the right to know the truth! Damn it! And right now!
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:07 pm

compared2what? wrote:____________________

^^I can't actually swear to it that they're doing that. So please don't take my word for it. It's my opinion, only.



I won't take your word for it, c2w. I am happy to note it as your opinion. And it tells us nothing about why these weirdly detailed and anonymously-authored fictional scenarios are being disseminated to the world as news. (Then denied, as and when necessary, because the anonymity makes everything easily deniable. It is all unspeakably corrupt, but par for the course under fascism.)

After December 15th or so


The AP surrealist masterpiece I posted above -- stating that Ryan L. had dunnit and that Adam L. was in police custody -- was in fact released on the very day of the massacre. (It also includes the slip/error/counterfactual statement/disinformation/porky pie that Nancy L. worked at the school. Another lie, but small beer by comparison.) It is very strong prima facie evidence that Adam Lanza was set up.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:08 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote: It is very strong prima facie evidence that Adam Lanza was set up.


No it isn't. Why would you even say that?
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:12 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
WASHINGTON (AP) —

AP source: Suspect is 24; younger brother held

By PETE YOST | Associated Press – Fri, Dec 14, 2012..

A law enforcement official says the suspect in the Connecticut school shootings is 24-year-old Ryan Lanza and that his younger brother is being held for questioning as a possible second shooter. The law enforcement official says the boys' mother, Nancy Lanza, works at the school as a teacher.

The official also said Ryan Lanza's girlfriend and another friend are missing in New Jersey.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the official said the suspect is dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because the source was not authorized to speak on the record about the developing criminal investigation.


http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-suspect ... itics.html


What a remarkably detailed scenario (again)! My guess is that that poor law enforcement official tripped over with a cup of alphabet soup and AP misinterpreted the messy result. Because god forbid I should accuse anyone of lying, or even of spreading disinformation. Right?

Jesus christ almighty.

So exactly what did lead that anonymous "law enforcement official" to supply that experienced international news agency AP with such a truly remarkable yarn? Why did he drag Adam Lanza into it at all, after having identified Ryan as the killer? Why did he pretend that Adam was alive and in police custody? And what led AP to believe him? Who the hell was he?

It was all over the web. all over the world.


Well. First of all, you're not talking about AP there. You're talking about Pete Yost, who's one of the few newspaper reporters in America whom I'm not surprised to learn actually has a real live relationship with a law enforcement source that includes being able to call that person up and get inside information about a breaking investigation. He's an institution.

While I (as usual) don't actually know, my guess would be that what happened was:

    The story broke.

    Pete Yost got out his little smart phone and called whomever he became drinking buddies with at the FBI while covering some other story (which is good professional practice, potentially, to be fair).

    FBI-drinking-buddy-of-Pete-Yost's (aka a "law enforcement official") said: "I'll see what I can find out and get back to ya, chief. Go Bills!" (Or words to that effect.)

    Did so.

The reasoning behind that hypothetical (apart from knowing who Pete Yost is and where in the food chain) is that it has the appearance of genuine inside information that nobody on the investigation would have given to an outisder before it was officially confirmed with crossed T's and dotted I's, but that practically any cop would tell practically any other. Including if they knew the cop they told was going to leak it, as long as there was plausible deniability. Because there's nothing there that would compromise the investigation. It's more like shop-talk/office gossip from someone in a position to know that sort of thing firsthand without knowing the firsthand information it's based on.

That is ONCE AGAIN not necessarily what happened, though. It might have been a lie.

I'd just like to note for the record in bold type:

It's more than a little unfair that I end up looking like I'm making up an alternate explanation for everything simply because I'm offering case-specific explanations for everything and not just repeating the same blanket explanation for every wrong fact that was reported anywhere at any time by anybody. It's not my fault that real life happens in detail. It just does.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:18 pm

barracuda wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:It is very strong prima facie evidence that Adam Lanza was set up.

No it isn't. Why would you even say that?


Use you're brayn, barracuda. Think about it. I am going to sleep now, because it's late here. Have a good looooong think.

Okay, but realistically, the other two instances of "serial lying" originated as misspeakings and rumors. So we're down to a single instance in your "serial".


"Realistically"? "Misspeakings"? What shameless rubbish. What utterly helpless garbage.

What a sickening performance, really. Stop trolling. If you have anything genuine or remotely useful to contribute, do so. But spare us all this embarrassing and shamelessly dishonest crap.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 162 guests