Satan

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Re: Satan

Postby 82_28 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:37 pm

I think that something like Jesus has always existed. Not to get too dickian once again, but the tractates by PKD sum it up. He recognizes the religions and the institutions of the world as being ancient. The gnostics had it right and it's all in the sum of its parts. I'm not versed in all things gnostic whatsoever, however I was turned onto it a number of years ago and I figured when I learned what I learned that I now had free reign to fill in my own blanks. The blanks I filled in were essentially the ones arrived at by those before me. The living knowledge is the Christ in all of us. It is not meant to be used for profit or gain or evil. It is simply meant to do no harm, to learn, to love and to understand that all are in pain. Even fucking Satanists.

I remember as a kid arguing with some friends of mine who were into death metal and they had all this satanic shit on their walls that, "dude you guys believe in god more than a Christian does!"

"No we don't!"

Yeah, you do bro. You are worshipping the adversary of a god you don't believe in.

We don't worship anything.

Well, what the fuck's with the inverted crosses and goat heads and shit hangin' on your basement bedroom walls?

Exactly.

I assume they grew up. But to believe in Satan is to belive in God, no?

Most of the masses all worship images and symbols, no matter the religion, culture or sub-culture.

It's an act of suburban teen rebellion against the empire, coming through the normal gnosis of any rebellious kid, but still curious and sharp that formed the scourge of "satanism" we think of today. Now though, the Christians have all figured out how to score the cool cred. And as Bill Hicks says. . .

You know the drill.

There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Satan

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:50 pm

82_28 wrote:I think that something like Jesus has always existed.

Absolutely! — in each of us.

THAT is the point, or it was originally intended to be. Until the Church came along, and perverted a myth with potential meaning for all people (which existed prior to Jesus of Nazareth, by the way) — into a crazy laser-like focus on just one guy (who may or may not have lived, historically).

(But doing that made it easier to control people: instead of empowering MILLIONS with knowledge of their divinity, the people became saddled with guilt over the alleged suffering and death of one guy. "The empire never ended.")
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
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Re: Satan

Postby NeonLX » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:56 pm

Simulist wrote:
82_28 wrote:I think that something like Jesus has always existed.

Absolutely! — in each of us.


Even in The Dick Cheney? Or Henry the K?
America is a fucked society because there is no room for essential human dignity. Its all about what you have, not who you are.--Joe Hillshoist
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Re: Satan

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:54 pm

NeonLX wrote:
Simulist wrote:
82_28 wrote:I think that something like Jesus has always existed.

Absolutely! — in each of us.


Even in The Dick Cheney? Or Henry the K?

Absolutely, yes — however well-cloaked it most assuredly is. ;)
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: Satan

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:17 pm

You know, Neon, I should probably add to that a very sad and unfortunate possible fact. (What follows involves far more intuition, admittedly, than rigor.)

Given what Jeff's research (and the research of several others, too) has uncovered about world elites, it seems possible to me that these elites not only know about this inner "divinity" (for wont of a better word), but that they also know the game-like structure of our condition here (hence the chessboard pattern so ubiquitous in secret societies, for example), and nevertheless have chosen to use this knowledge as an opportunity — not for being kind and building up these other facets of the Self they share this earth with — but as an opportunity to use that knowledge as a means to mesmerize and to rule over them.

As I say, more intuition on my part here than rigor.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: Satan

Postby Ben D » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:29 pm

Fair comment Simulist, and that strategy pretty much fits the role of the adversary.

Satan the Dragon, so far as my understanding of scripture goes, is not a physical being, but a spiritual involutionary force as opposed to a spiritual evolutionary one. Hence the 'world elites' whose minds and hearts are attuned to the 'dark' forces, implement these strategies, and the manifested state of world we see today is just the present state of play.

Iow, the physical world is the world of effects, the cause originates in the domain of mind/spirit where the involutionary (evil) and evolutionary (good) forces are each doing their thing. As an analogy, I think of the action of a centrifuge which in time separates the heavy material from the light, only the life processes being subject to complementary opposite influences eventually brings about a polarization of selfishness and altrusim.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

And btw,of course it is an error on the part of Christian theologians who use the concept of Satan as the opposite of God, God is absolute and forever remains the transcendent underlying Unity of the forces of good and evil, much the same way as the Tao is the transcendent underlying unity of Ying and Yang.

Image

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring peace and create evil;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

** or Nirvana, Allah, Brahman, Tao, etc...
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Re: Satan

Postby Marie Laveau » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:41 pm

alwyn wrote:i read the article, but i was far more interested in your lead-in to it.

i always thought that if there was a Satan, he would convince everyone that this place was imaginary, and that their real world and reward was in heaven, so it was ok to trash the place. when the deluded woke up in hell they it looked strangely like the earth they had just trashed...



This right here is utterly brilliant.
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Re: Satan

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:42 pm

I'm pretty much with you on this Ben. In fact, I also appreciate Jim DeKorne's idea that this world functions as sort of a "cracking tower" for souls.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: Satan

Postby Marie Laveau » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:46 pm

Well......

Having come out of something similar to Jeff's experience, and having read and read and read and read, and still being of the inclination that we, as a species, really don't know much of anything at all....

it seems elementary to me that anything the establishment pushes -- religion or science -- for example, is probably something a person would want to steer away from. But that's just me.

Of course, I will be honest in saying I have no idea what one should steer toward, either. Oddly enough, though I know most people have something that brings them comfort (and I have no problem with that, whatever it might be) I have found that the not knowing is comforting. Much more comforting than the religious/political BS I was taught. Which wasn't in the least bit comforting, IF you read the book a few times. There's some WEIRD $h!t in that thing.
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Re: Satan

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:36 pm

...

Satan is the adversary that is correct.

A mere symbol.

The Mind of man encompasses all symbols, my friends.

I know not of dark adepts.

I have heard speak of the counter initiatory principle.

How could such a thing exist? How could a spiritual materialist intuit the Living Mysteries? Can that be done for personal gain?

I know not.

But there is much I don't know.

Yet this I do know; the left hand always acts in service of the right.

Where the purpose is unknown, the inscrutable may appear sinister.

Never fear.

Always hoist by their own petard are the evil ones. Always in service of the greater plan do they work; always they reck not what they reek.

Such is the Universal Way.



:lovehearts: :angelwings: :lovehearts:

...
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Re: Satan

Postby 82_28 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:12 pm

Marie Laveau wrote:Well......

Having come out of something similar to Jeff's experience, and having read and read and read and read, and still being of the inclination that we, as a species, really don't know much of anything at all....

it seems elementary to me that anything the establishment pushes -- religion or science -- for example, is probably something a person would want to steer away from. But that's just me.

Of course, I will be honest in saying I have no idea what one should steer toward, either. Oddly enough, though I know most people have something that brings them comfort (and I have no problem with that, whatever it might be) I have found that the not knowing is comforting. Much more comforting than the religious/political BS I was taught. Which wasn't in the least bit comforting, IF you read the book a few times. There's some WEIRD $h!t in that thing.


One Gnostic mythos describes the declination of aspects of the divine into human form. Sophia (Greek: Σοφια, lit. “wisdom”), the Demiurge’s mother and a partial aspect of the divine Pleroma or “Fullness,” desired to create something apart from the divine totality, and without the receipt of divine assent. In this abortive act of separate creation, she gave birth to the monstrous Demiurge and, being ashamed of her deed, wrapped him in a cloud and created a throne for him within it. The Demiurge, isolated, did not behold his mother, nor anyone else, and thus concluded that only he himself existed, being ignorant of the superior levels of reality that were his birth-place.

The Demiurge, having stolen a portion of power from his mother, sets about a work of creation in unconscious imitation of the superior Pleromatic realm: He frames the seven heavens, as well as all material and animal things, according to forms furnished by his mother; working however blindly, and ignorant even of the existence of the mother who is the source of all his energy. He is blind to all that is spiritual, but he is king over the other two provinces. The word dēmiourgos properly describes his relation to the material; he is the father of that which is animal like himself.[12]

Thus Sophia’s power becomes enclosed within the material forms of humanity, themselves entrapped within the material universe: the goal of Gnostic movements was typically the awakening of this spark, which permitted a return by the subject to the superior, non-material realities which were its primal source.


This basic sum up makes the most idealistic sense to me as I hate atheists and Christians, yet love them both as souls of whoever must be that way. Though it is from wiki, it, as said, sums it up.

Just never hate and when you feel it, speak your mind, but never let it fester. People who hate let this shit fester and thus they darkly nod on you when you call them out. These are the people of the ancient Empire -- just as ancient today, as it never ever fucking ended. They are carrying ancient data meant to destroy our ancestors -- back then -- but the data lives. It is the source of all sadness.

To kill us today is to say that we were killed many times before.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Satan

Postby FourthBase » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:06 am

JackRiddler wrote:Dave McGowan shows the downside of being the sharpest knife: you just can't stop stabbing.

Very little in the way of conspiratainment is actually entertaining, but he is a talented humorist, so he pulls it off.


Random Thoughts at the Dawn of the Year 2012
February 13, 2012

I thought I’d begin this rant by sharing some of my thoughts on the historical figure known as Jesus of Nazareth. I think we can all agree that, unlike some of the other subjects I have weighed in on in the past, this is one on which people do not tend to have strongly held points-of-view, so there is little chance that I will offend and alienate readers right off the bat.

So let’s jump right into it then with observation #1: When the likely outcome of an unwed pregnancy is death by stoning, people can be really creative liars.

Nothing in the least bit controversial about that … right? Let’s move on then to observation #2: It is fully understandable why the lie was told, and even why many people in that era might have believed it; what is more difficult to understand is why tens of millions of people around the world still believe it 2,000 years later.

I doubt that I’ve lost anyone yet, so let’s quickly move on to observation #3: Jesus was initially described as coming from a line of men who worked with their hands, which was later interpreted to mean that he was a carpenter. Given though that the primary building materials in the land of his birth were sand and rock, it is far more likely that Joseph and his sons were stone masons. Just saying …

Observation #4: Jesus of Nazareth’s real father was undoubtedly a Roman citizen. Some have speculated that he was the product of rape by one of the notoriously ruthless Roman storm-troopers, but his later actions suggest to this completely impartial observer that it was more likely a consensual coupling and that the father was someone of considerably more importance than a mere soldier.

Observation #5: Jesus was very likely a controlled Roman asset. Just as, nearly two thousand years later, the obviously controlled asset known as Jesse Jackson replaced the slain Martin Luther King, and the equally controlled asset known as Louis Farrakhan replaced the eliminated Malcolm X, so it was that Jesus was maneuvered into position to replace the executed John the Baptist, who had, I’m guessing, become a bit of a problem for the Roman overseers.

The message that the emergent messiah delivered to those living under the brutal hand of those Roman occupiers was, by any rational analysis, exactly the wrong one. It was a message brimming with advice about loving neighbors and turning cheeks … a message that constantly reinforced the notion that it was better to be poor and oppressed than wealthy and powerful, for the poor, you see, were going to spend all eternity in the glorious ‘Kingdom of Heaven,’ while the rich were going to burn in the fires of Hell (unless they were somehow able to steer their camels through the eye of a needle, or something like that).

It was, in other words, a belief system seemingly designed specifically to suppress any thoughts of rebellion amongst the unwashed masses. And the beauty of it was that no one would find out if the fabled Kingdom of Heaven actually existed until it was too late for them to get a refund.

I know what you’re thinking here: “But Dave, didn’t the Romans execute Jesus, and do so in a horrifically brutal and sadistic manner – you know, like in that Mel Gibson torture-porn flick?”

SNIP etc. etc.



As often the case, I enjoy this long after the point of derailment, when he makes one of his inevitable switches from logical speculation (I'm sure his observations #1 and #2 and possibly #4 have occurred to most of you, as they did to the Monty Python writers of Life of Brian) to an extended novelization of a possible scenario, treated as though proven.

Even though, of course, the likeliest scenario of all is that Jesus is a character made up decades after the time of the supposed crucifixion. And that the form Christianity had taken by the time of Constantine was, in fact, fathered by Romans as a slave religion, even if not in the literal sense McGowan suggests above.

.


LOL!

I knew LoB was the most realistic, historically-grounded Jesus movie ever, but...
Nope, it had never occurred to me that Python had grounded that part in a real, substantive theory.

Image

I don't necessarily agree with #5, not if it's the Gospel Jesus, as opposed to Paul's Jesus.
Gospel Jesus reads very much like a radical lefty new-age manic hippie. Well, maybe schizophrenic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2322 ... t=Abstract

To which I wrote to friends:

"Well, there are a few ways to interpret it. First, one can chuckle at the scientists who hope the world will condescend to feel more compassion and understanding for the kind of helpless, pitiful bastards who have...oh yeah, monumentally influenced Western civilization. I guess ever feeling respect for such people would only encourage delusions of grandeur like, say, fantasies about monumentally influencing Western civilization. Second, one can acknowledge that, yeah, these prophets were almost certainly having psychotic experiences, and some were probably full-blown schizophrenics. Which doesn't necessarily discredit their experiences, maybe that's just how a God would operate, by channeling advice through insane people's wide-open, less-filtered frequencies. Or maybe an actual experience of the divine (and attempt to communicate it) will inevitably drive even the sanest person crazy. Then again, it could also be that people's most sacred beliefs are derived from the equivalent of the rantings of a bum who sleeps on a park bench, and so should be reconsidered, to put it lightly. Third, one could note that pretty much the only documentation of schizophrenia in the ancient world, or for that matter the world before the mid-19th century, would be such religious revelations. Maybe that's because, well, what would a schizophrenic hallucinate 2500 years ago? Slightly scarier or more numerous beasts than the ones already literally prowling the land, or that someone might be conspiring to steal your sandals? There wasn't much to delude oneself about, as opposed to today's rich menu of cinematic nightmares, ubiquitous celebrities, omniscient technology. There also wasn't much to fail at doing, to qualify as debilitating dysfunction. Jobs back then were extraordinarily simple and any schooling was rare and informal. Perhaps this points to the ideal treatment for schizophrenics today: Send them to a farm, to live life anachronistically, like an ancient -- then their "disease" will cease to exist, or at least not be much of a hindrance."

[What about the pragmatic interpretation, "Shit happens, we save the good stuff and disregard the rest."]

"Is that really what happens with revealed religions? Seems to be more: Crazy guy proclaims some stuff (however noble or deranged), then generations of followers build a massive complex of myths, rules, and institutions around that stuff. The operative heuristics of these revealed religions, combined, would only fill a single 8x11 page, if that. And while the heuristics as words technically survive millennia -- as lived day-to-day they wind up twisted, overwhelmed, ignored. What seems to be antifragile is the other stuff, the superfluous stuff. The tall tales of magic, the rigid political hierarchies, the laws and the footnotes to the laws. That's what is reinforced when shit hits fans. All calibrated to optimize transmission of and adherence to itself, rather than improve the usefulness of the original heuristic stuff. The selective force behind what gets kept and discarded being whatever propagates the religion, not whatever works. (p.s. I strongly recommend the book "Mind Wars" and its concept of tenetics.)"

[Evolution depends on mutation. Madness is a mutation generator.]

(A great point, I had to agree.)
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
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Re: Satan

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:45 am

.

[removed silliness]
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Re: Satan

Postby beeline » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:50 pm

Simulist wrote:It's not even altogether clear that an historical person, Jesus of Nazareth, actually lived!



Seriously. For such an important figure, the lack of corroborating evidence in the historical narrative makes his existence questionable at best:

No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus. What is more surprising (Jesus could simply have been unknown to local historians) is that academics note that the gospels themselves do not allude to first-hand historical sources, either! Link


And the logical fallacies that surround the concept of the Judaic "God" are just silly--Worship Me, so I can protect you. From Me. If you don't worship Me. Also, I require animal sacrifices to be left on the altar of My temples. Even though I am God and don't need to eat. I just like animal suffering. And so on, ad infinitum. Honestly, that any religion exists today just shows me how dumb/willfully ignorant most people are, and how little we have advanced as a species since, I dunno, the advent of sun-worship.
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Re: Satan

Postby FourthBase » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:07 pm

Before newspapers and the internet -- unless you were super, super famous -- it would probably be hard to prove you existed. It'd be pretty much up to your family, friends, and neighbors to say "Ohhh, him...yeah, I remember him. Vaguely." Maybe scratch down some stories and hope they didn't vanish down the memory hole. (You think WE have a memory hole?) Ultimately, it was just some crazy Jew who brought the ruckus to his relatively-insignificant neighborhood, and was swiftly put down by a mid-level bureaucrat. Or so we can only surmise.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
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