Hell no, I ain't paying another $300 a month (ACA)

[brainpanhandler]

Does capitalism lead to more or less centralization of power when government is owned and manipulated for profit by private interests? Government should at a minimum regulate capitalism such that the psychopaths/sociopaths cannot treat the populace as cattle and the world as it's ashtray.

To me, it's irrelevant what leads to or doesn't lead to centralization. Centralization is the issue.

And it's not irrelevant at all if we are considering intervening stages of change. IMO we cannot get from where we are, rapacious capitalism, to some form of decentralized self governance without intervening stages of greater and not less action by centralized government. But that's like asking the fox to rebuild the hen house at this point.

I don't really see a way out as a society or even as a species other than collapse and restructure. I was reading and watching the material by Mcpherson you posted in the Collapse thread when I got distracted by your comments here. I may have more to say in that thread.

[Carol Newquist]

Brainwashed westerners consider that "socialism", by which they mean the specter of maoist/stalinist totalitarianism. I just consider it socialism, without the scare quotes.

I don't consider Single Payer, Socialism. It's the same thing as insurance (which isn't really insurance), except it's handled by the government and not corporations that require a profit. I have yet to see Socialism in the actual. It's sounds nice in the abstract, but other ideologues say the same thing about Capitalism.

[brainpanhandler]

That was not socialism.

Of course it wasn't, but it was inculcated and implemented under the guise of Socialism, so excuse me if I'm mistrusting of the next banner of it that comes along that says this time we'll do it right......we promise.

In the meantime, I will restate that I was for Single Payer, but that's a moot point. It's not going to happen. Ever. And I have no faith, whatsoever, this sack of crap legislation called the ACA will ever lead to Single Payer or Universal Healthcare.

Probably not. I don't think we disagree all that much then. See above.

[brainpanhandler]

Brainwashed westerners consider that "socialism", by which they mean the specter of maoist/stalinist totalitarianism. I just consider it socialism, without the scare quotes.

I don't consider Single Payer, Socialism. It's the same thing as insurance (which isn't really insurance), except it's handled by the government and not corporations that require a profit.

Right. Why is that not socialism again?

[Carol Newquist]

Right. Why is that not socialism again?

You know, we're really not that far apart on this, and yet I feel like you have an impression of me....that I'm something I'm not. Do you really believe me to be a brainwashed westerner? Every counter you have made to me thus far has been a counter I once upon a time in my travels made to what you refer to as "brainwashed westerners." I have evolved since then and realize it was the wrong argument. Considering that, it's ironic that you would consider me that which I once argued with in my evolution. I don't believe it's Socialism for the reasons this Socialist states.

http://socialistworker.org/2010/11/22/does-socialism-exist

[brainpanhandler]

Right. Why is that not socialism again?

You know, we're really not that far apart on this, and yet I feel like you have an impression of me....that I'm something I'm not.

Honestly, I really don't. I try very hard not to let first impressions override current perceptions. IRL I leave people room to contradict themselves, be confused, change, grow... here as well, even more so. It took years and hundreds, if not thousands of posts, for me to begin to believe I had begun to get a clear picture of long term members hbere. And I only count those on two hands. And even then I am trusting that people are being honest. Although frankly if anyone can create a persona here that is indistinguishable from an authentic person then what does it matter to me if I never intend to meet them IRL? Although on that basis I would.

Do you really believe me to be a brainwashed westerner?

No, Certainly not more so than the average westerner I would guess. I could sift through all your posts here and perhaps construct an argument that you are in some area. But that would be an unpleasant exercise I'm not interested in. We all are to some extent or another.

Every counter you have made to me thus far has been a counter I once upon a time in my travels made to what you refer to as "brainwashed westerners." I have evolved since then and realize it was the wrong argument.

Honestly, I really don't know to what you are referring. Can you direct me to it? I so rarely see anyone evolve or change their mind around here, about anything.

I was responding to this comment, which I presumed mr_martin would understand without having to directly address them. This allows mr_martin to respond as they wish and not feel pressured.

Socialism never works

I don't believe it's Socialism for the reasons this Socialist states.

http://socialistworker.org/2010/11/22/does-socialism-exist

I'll have to give that some thought.

But as context, I buy my groceries from a local workers coop, I work for a local worker's coop and I get my health insurance through my worker's coop from a local health cooperative. Profit is not anathema in these organizations, but neither is it the sole goal at any cost. It's messy, but it's democratic.

[Carol Newquist]

But as context, I buy my groceries from a local workers coop, I work for a local worker's coop and I get my health insurance through my worker's coop from a local health cooperative. Profit is not anathema in these organizations, but neither is it the sole goal at any cost. It's messy, but it's democratic.

I like that and wish I could say the same.

[Carol Newquist]

I was responding to this comment, which I presumed mr_martin would understand without having to directly address them.

My bad. I thought the "brainwashed westerner" comment was directed at me because of my comments about Mao and Stalin. I haven't evolved here because I've only been here a short while, but I'm talking about my views in general for the past twenty years.

[brainpanhandler]

But as context, I buy my groceries from a local workers coop, I work for a local worker's coop and I get my health insurance through my worker's coop from a local health cooperative. Profit is not anathema in these organizations, but neither is it the sole goal at any cost. It's messy, but it's democratic.

I like that and wish I could say the same.

Edit: I buy my groceries from a local Consumers coop.

All of you... please support your local cooperatives. Seek them out. Beware "owned and operated by employees" corporations. Do your research and support authentic local cooperatives that share your values.

[brainpanhandler]

I was responding to this comment, which I presumed mr_martin would understand without having to directly address them.

My bad. I thought the "brainwashed westerner" comment was directed at me because of my comments about Mao and Stalin. I haven't evolved here because I've only been here a short while, but I'm talking about my views in general for the past twenty years.

Every counter you have made to me thus far has been a counter I once upon a time in my travels made to what you refer to as "brainwashed westerners." I have evolved since then and realize it was the wrong argument.

What makes you think I would have somehow been aware of you before you starting posting here. I'm confused.

On edit: though I am not directing this to you, I would say that the average westerner has been lead to believe that maoism and stalinism represent the result of marxist communism. Who benefits from that belief being widespread? The state as a central totalitarian corporation is not communism, nor is it socialism.

Communism/socialism on a large scale have never been without direct competition and subversion from capitalist/oligarchical actors. Capitalism is finally running up against some self limiting forces. Nature will bat last, but I don't imagine a baseball being hit. More like a Pandora's piñata. There's a terrible, dark poetry about it.

[justdrew]

decentralization isn'y a perfect solution either, it makes room for many petty Lords to arise and it can be easier for a canny manipulator to twist smaller communities. and many many things deserve universal standards and enforcement thereof.

[Elihu]

Shakespeare SONNET 149

Canst thou, O cruel! say I love thee not,
When I against myself with thee partake?
Do I not think on thee, when I forgot
Am of myself, all tyrant, for thy sake?
Who hateth thee that I do call my friend?
On whom frown'st thou that I do fawn upon?
Nay, if thou lour'st on me, do I not spend
Revenge upon myself with present moan?
What merit do I in myself respect,
That is so proud thy service to despise,
When all my best doth worship thy defect,
Commanded by the motion of thine eyes?
But, love, hate on, for now I know thy mind;
Those that can see thou lovest, and I am blind.

[Carol Newquist]

decentralization isn'y a perfect solution either,

Of course, but it beats centralization, imo. All the things you posit as criticisms can and do happen, but it also is much easier to cooperate and collaborate with smaller groups, i.e. bph's cooperatives. It's another moot point, though. Centralization will not concede to decentralization without a fight and or collapse/calamity, so it's here to stay until then. Centralization is necessary now because of centralization. It ensures its perpetuity by making it near impossible, without dire consequences, to deviate from it. It locks us in, so to speak.

[brainpanhandler]

Centralization is necessary now because of centralization. It ensures its perpetuity by making it near impossible, without dire consequences, to deviate from it. It locks us in, so to speak.

Capitalist centralization certainly does this. We have a governing structure within our cooperative, answerable to the member owners to be sure, but nonetheless a certain amount of authority is ceded to them.

[brainpanhandler]

I must go outside. Away from this confounded machine.