The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:59 pm

Sorry, smiths, I think the article is frankly a load of crap. It's not even worth anyone's while analysing why in detail, it just breathes wrongness in every clichéd line. For instance -

"The problem is that what Brand is actually complaining about is not democracy. He is, instead, complaining about capitalism, and in this he is not the first."


1. Brand never claims to be complaining about democracy, nor does he do so. He complains instead and rightly that what is called democracy is a sham and a scam and a mere simulacrum.

2. Brand does of course identify capitalism as the enemy ("Profit is a dirty word, it's a filthy word." Etc.)

3. Brand does of course know he's not the first. (What a stupid thing to accuse him of.)

4. Etc etc etc.

You yourself write:

smiths wrote:i don't want to overthrow the brilliant democratic institutions that were built in the last three centuries


Built how?

By whom?

What did they have to overthrow to achieve all that? They had to overthrow what was called democracy. They were accused of wanting only chaos. They were constantly warned of the dire consequences if they didn't see reason. They were told that their natural-born rulers knew best.

How much of their centuries-long collective work and sacrifice still remains? How much of it has been neutralised and hollowed out and reversed in the last half-century and especially in the quarter-century since the fall of the Eastern bloc, and most especially in the 12 years since 9/11?

Image
Still admired everywhere: our brilliant democratic insitutions

Do you think what you call "our [sic] democratic institutions" are still "brilliant"? Are they doing a fine job of serving the people and attending to humanity's needs?

Image
Serving Democracy, just before it explodes

Ozywhatsisname writes:

"Brand has pitched his message to the young and the disenfranchised."


No. He has not "pitched his message" at all or to anyone. Ozfenric's language is so infected by the corporate/marketing mindset that he doesn't even notice this.

"he has hit a nerve"


Yeah right.

Dead language, dead thought.

- On Edit: Maybe things have not yet gotten quite as bad in Australia, I honestly don't know.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:28 pm

Oh well, Ghana has a plagiarist with good taste.

Of course, or off of that, it could have also been that American happens to be the more universal English than the Queen's.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:33 pm

Just interjecting a pointless anecdote here, of no real moment, which can be dismissed high-handedly by those who either want a revolution or think it is a silly idea.

My Mum has fancied Russel Brand since he first made it big as a presenter of Big Brother back in the... back in the old days, I don't remember when. He used to talk a lot about his ballbag and his dinkle on TV in those days. He was no heavyweight then, and still isn't now, but he had something.

In 2010, my Mum voted for David Cameron to be Prime Minister.

In Scotland ( :shock: ).

So did my Aunt, but that's another story.

She admitted this heinous crime to me much later, with much shame. As far as I can gather, it was because David Cameron had a "nice face." I did not disown her then and there, because I felt this monstrous mistake had come about more from a moment of weakness or madness than from any pre-planned malicious intent.

Today, I showed her the Brand/Paxman interview, and she agreed with every word that Brand said (apart from the not voting part). Three years after voting for David Cameron, she is now in full agreement that a revolution is necessary to fix Britain.

I offer this to the Senate merely as a morsel. Both sides can feed and build strength from it. Either she was silly to fancy Russel Brand, and vote for Cameron, and she's still silly now that she believes in the need for revolutionary change, or, she was right to fancy Russel Brand, she made a mistake voting for Cameron, and she is right once more to believe that only a massive, epochal change will prevent Britain becoming what Orwell foretold.

A bit late for that, some might say. But better late than never.

When even instinctively conservative and traditional folk are railing at the current system, and would rather suffer hardship than see it continue, will even those who do not benefit from it not realise that it is goosed?

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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby smiths » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:50 pm

the great thing about a concept like 'innocent until proven guilty', is that it doesn't matter who came up with it,
in a single short set of words it absolutely rules out arbitrary arrest, imprisonment, torture and execution

or 'trial by jury', been around thousands of years, no idea who thought of it, without doubt fairer than trial without jury

or, yes, 'representative democracy', deeply flawed, open to abuse, unresponsive to change, yes absolutely ...
who thought of it? who gives a fuck
it is less corruptible than every other system so far experimented with on planet Earth

you and i both know the reason the representatives of the people are so corrupt is the money in the system thats been put on outcomes other than those in societies best interest by the richest and most powerful who now have an extraordinary degree of control over the lives of billions

but the question still needs to be answered, when 'the revolution' gets rid of the rich fuckers and the democratic prison that obviously must be destroyed according to a lot of peoples logic,

what will be constructed in its place?
because smashing things up without a clue of what to do afterwords leads to tyranny, repression, coercion and control - not freedom
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:18 pm

Smiths said : "but the question still needs to be answered, when 'the revolution' gets rid of the rich fuckers and the democratic prison that obviously must be destroyed according to a lot of peoples logic,

what will be constructed in its place?
because smashing things up without a clue of what to do afterwords leads to tyranny, repression, coercion and control - not freedom.
"

I'm not exactly an advocate of revolution, but even if I was, it's obvious (or should be) that the kind of revolution Brand is calling for won't (can't) be a revolution which adheres to previous paradigms. He doesn't want to see the children of the "bourgeoisie" being executed for their ownership of a hamster. We live in different times, and in very different places. Has any revolution ever really lead to the full destruction of the preceding state apparatus anyway? Even the Russian revolution of 1917-1918, perhaps the most complete and annihilating extirpation of the former government system in history (outwith Cambodia), kept many employees of the Okhrana working hard as secret policemen for the emerging Soviet state.

That's not what he's talking about. The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan were a revolutionary force for the generation that preceded ours, or perhaps preceded ours by two, and they achieved great and lasting results, regardless of what we may now think of their (some of their) toadying antics toward authority. We will never see their like again - towering figures in popular culture who spoke sense to the public and actually changed the world. It just doesn't happen anymore.

But it does. Assange, Snowden, and (he hopes) Russell Brand are here to offer service. I don't say that to denigrate Russell Brand, in comparison to the others. He has decided to make himself a part of the delivery system of the message, at great risk to himself, and he generally seems like a fine fellow. What's the problem?

You must realise that even if the current system was reformable, or salvageable, it wouldn't be worth saving anyway? It never was.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby smiths » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:29 am

You must realise that even if the current system was reformable, or salvageable, it wouldn't be worth saving anyway? It never was.


what is the current system?
so i can recognise the revolution which transcends this system once it gets going


and ... one of the defining features of the Bolsheviks was that they dont really think too much about after, they spent years planning how to organise and smash the old regime, they thought remarkably little about what to do once they had captured power

Russell Brand might not want to kill people who have upper class backgrounds, but the Bolsheviks understood one fundamental lesson that seems to be relevant over and over agian at times like these,

the people who have power have no intention of letting it go, hence, in the Bolsheviks case, violent revolutionary class struggle

so what about now, a demonstration of overwhelming popular protest and resistance? Perhaps Occupy to the next level, massed civil disobedience and and a demand 'tahrir style', that no-one will move, work or do anything until the powerful people have gone and the politicians have fucked off

and then?
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby smiths » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:37 am

honestly, The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan didn't change the world,

if they had, just 1 long generation ago, then we wouldn't be in the goddam awful mess we are in
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:45 am

For me, the current system is the United Kingdom, as it is currently constituted.

It is unreformable, unsalvageable, and would not really be worth salvaging anyway, because it was never any good to start with.

Many good and intelligent people would of course disagree with me on this, and they will go on disagreeing with me on this for the rest of recorded time, but they will always be wrong, now and tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow.
Last edited by AhabsOtherLeg on Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:13 am

smiths » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:37 am wrote:honestly, The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan didn't change the world,

if they had, just 1 long generation ago, then we wouldn't be in the goddam awful mess we are in


They did do some good, some serious good. Don't give up just because things are shite now. Don't write off their contribution. I wasn't alive when they were bringing down the the big and worthwhile game that we are still scavenging from now, but I have read and seen history since, and a change has occurred. Has it not?

A change for the better, God help us.

When those guys (mostly guys) were playing songs like "See My Friends" (the Kinks) to massive enthusiastic mixed crowds there was still a law on the statue books that said homosexuality could be punished by the courts with a fine or imprisonment (and far more importantly, there was a crowd of rowdy Brit youths outside each gig who weren't very sympathetic to the idea of homosexuality either, and still aren't - but they are far more sympathetic now than they ever were before in history.)

That's changed. The law i mean, and the attitudes. And not by accident.

The questions that even a "pop" band like the Stones posed were serious and worthwhile, as it turned out. The regular society never really did come up with an answer to any of those questions, just an accomodation with them. A velvet revolution, I suppose you'd call it.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby smiths » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:30 am

some aspects of society have changed, thats true, the situation for women, non-whites, homosexuals and handicapped people has improved dramatically in some places in the last two generations,

which places have these people seen great improvements, well, in democratic countries

the less democratic a country, the less likely homosexuals are kissing in the street, and the less likely women are living or working however they like,

like i said at the beginning, most of the social gains made were made in social democracies, by socialist democratic parties

dont anyone mistake my observations for a lack of dedication to change, i want it as much as any of you

but i think you should try and see where you're going when you move forward and talk about breaking things up
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:55 am

smiths » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:30 am wrote:like i said at the beginning, most of the social gains made were made in social democracies, by socialist democratic parties


Unfortunately, we no longer live in a social democracy, and no longer have a choice
between social democratic parties.

The policies of the main Westminster parties have long ago converged, coalesced, and the convergence is in the centre-right (which, not long ago, would've been considered the right, if not quite the far-right.)

Which would be fine, I suppose, if the main parties would just go on playing the part of centre-right broheims who agreed on everything, rather than continuing to insult us by playing the part of enemies to each other, and salespeople to whoever happens to wander by.

Great post though smiths, hard to argue with, altogether.

For the record, I am not one of those who is calling for a full-scale revolution, merely for the end of the United Kingdom. Normal life and business will go on much as before, it is only the end of an outdated and damaging political power structure that I would like to see. Has to happen sooner or later. Best get it over and done with.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby Sounder » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:43 am

Thanks for your contribution to this thread smiths.

As Russel Brand spoke at one point, it is one thing for a person to tend toward caddishness, but it is quite another for society to validate and cultivate caddish behavior.

We live within an inherently coercive conceptual structuring system, and to my mind at any rate, any worthwhile 'revolution' must change this aesthetic within our collective psyches.

Bolshevism never even tried as it was and always will be fully committed to coercion.

The ONLY way to show (actual) compassion, or indeed even usefulness toward our fellow man, is to formalize an aesthetic that gives order to our categories in such a way that all may come to see the difference between a healthy integrated psyche, (and how to get there), versus the split and fragmented psyches that result from both promoting and participating with coercive agendas while also being victimized by those agendas.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:19 pm

Read at source for embedded links.

Orwell Would Have Backed Brand’s Call for Revolution

by Tim Holmes

First published: 07 November, 2013

http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php ... revolution

Russell Brand appeared on Newsnight recently—you may have heard about it. Demanding revolution, denouncing voting and tearing into the British establishment, the comedian generated a surge of public support—and soon enough a backlash, as the media did their best to vilify him. Nick Cohen, as I’ve noted, calls Brand a Nazi; Tom Chivers a nutcase; Robin Lustig an idiot. The Irish Times’ Donald Clarke deems Brand “irritating”, “floundering” and “largely idiotic”; dismisses his “almost childlike ideas” as “waffle”; and complains that he “dismisse[s] democracy” as an “elitist fad.” But more serious critiques have also appeared, defending voting without illusions; expressing deep discomfort with Brand’s casual sexism; and exploring the broader issues this raises for progressives.

Here, I take issue with two pieces in particular: the latest commentary by Media Lens; and comedian Robert Webb’s “open letter” to Brand in the New Statesman. Both criticise Brand, but from radically different perspectives. In so doing, both invoke well-known left-wing figures, and misrepresent what those figures say.

Media Lens begin by exposing the campaign of ad hominem attacks against Brand—noting, for instance, the Independent’s backhanded compliments and irrelevant digs about “champagne socialism”—but soon take aim at the man himself. Their critique is pure gift-horse dentistry. They accuse Brand of “a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the corporate media”—falsely. That Brand fails to denounce the BBC they deem “crucial,” as if he is obliged to cover everything in one sitting. This takes purist demands to absurd extremes.

They end up clutching at straws: Brand’s a corporate media employee; Chomsky calls media attention a sign you’re “doing something wrong”; ergo Brand’s interview won’t spur revolution. But Chomsky has himself appeared on Newsnight – so is he “doing something wrong” too? Of course not: Media Lens have simply mangled his arguments. Nowhere does Chomsky deny that Newsnight features token radicals, or that doing so might catalyse radical change. Mistakenly applying a (deracinated) general model to a specific case, positing effects where the propaganda model posits none, Media Lens reach nonsensical conclusions.

Webb offers nonsense of a different variety. He upbraids Brand for “wilfully talking through your arse about something very important”; recommends he “read some fucking Orwell”; and claims Brand's call for revolution has inspired him to rejoin Labour—because in office, “on the whole, they helped.”

In criticising Brand's opposition to voting, Webb has a point: Brand has probably done real damage. But he doesn’t stop there. Brand is “actively telling a lot of people that engagement with our democracy is a bad idea”—note how “engagement” and “voting” become practical synonyms—for “election day is when we really are the masters.” David Cameron works for us, not vice versa (even if three out of every four of us didn’t vote for him, and many of the rest did so only grudgingly). To curb corporate power, parliaments need “more legitimacy. That’s more votes, not fewer.” Revolution, on the other hand, “ends in death camps, gulags, repression and murder”: Brand is “an intelligent fellow citizen ready to toss away the hard-won liberties of his brothers and sisters because he’s bored.” Enter Saint George.

Alas, the real George Orwell lends scant support to this argument. Orwell himself “tossed away the hard-won liberties of his brothers and sisters” by grassing them up to British Intelligence on a hunch. And about Britain’s “democracy” he did not mince words: though he believed in a unifying national consciousness that connected classes, he also wrote:

George Orwell wrote:“Do I mean by all this that England is a genuine democracy? No, not even a reader of the Daily Telegraph could quite swallow that.”

“The English electoral system, for instance, is an all but open fraud. In a dozen obvious ways it is gerrymandered in the interest of the moneyed class.”

“It is all too obvious that our talk of ‘defending democracy’ is nonsense while it is a mere accident of birth that decides whether a gifted child shall or shall not get the education it deserves.”

“England is a family with the wrong members in control. Almost entirely we are governed by the rich, and by people who step into positions of command by right of birth.”


After the war, he added, English aristocrats hope to go “back to ‘democracy’, i.e. capitalism, back to dole queues and Rolls-Royce cars…” He saw Labour as weak and hamstrung:

George Orwell wrote:“Once in power, the same dilemma would always have faced [Labour]: carry out your promises, and risk revolt, or continue with the same policy as the Conservatives, and stop talking about Socialism. The Labour leaders never found a solution …”


And he was crystal clear what to do about it:

George Orwell wrote:“The difference between Socialism and capitalism is not primarily a difference of technique. One cannot simply change from one system to the other as one might install a new piece of machinery in a factory, and then carry on as before, with the same people in positions of control. Obviously there is also needed a complete shift of power. New blood, new men, new ideas—in the true sense of the word, a revolution.”

“It is only by revolution that the native genius of the English people can be set free. Revolution does not mean red flags and street fighting, it means a fundamental shift of power. Whether it happens with or without bloodshed is largely an accident of time and place. Nor does it mean the dictatorship of a single class… we have got to break the grip of the moneyed class as a whole.”

“By revolution we become more ourselves, not less. There is no question of stopping short, striking a compromise, salvaging ‘democracy’, standing still. Nothing ever stands still.”


Orwell, in short, would have scoffed at Webb’s claim that “more votes” means more “legitimacy”. This is like claiming you can become manager of a record label by buying more CDs. Those concerned, as Webb professes to be, with making the public their own “masters” must seek not only to broaden democracy, but to deepen it—through electoral reform, rights of recall, referenda, direct decision-making powers—while addressing the myriad forces that obstruct it.

This means scrapping the Lords and the Monarchy; extricating big money from politics; overhauling the rich man’s racket known as the justice system; curbing time poverty, material inequality and class divides in education; fashioning a media system that represents the public rather than multi-millionaires; and so on. None of this can happen without massive pressure from below: without it, the establishment’s interlocking, mutually supportive institutions will block any changes we try to make. These institutions function as a kind of immune system: we see it at work when the Tories’ financial backers help block electoral reform; or when the press scuppers even rudimentary checks and balances on its power.

When Brand calls for revolution, Webb responds by rejoining Labour. But this begs the question—what stopped him until now? Indeed if Labour “helped overall,” why did he ever leave? The most obvious answer—Iraq—far outweighs any good Labour did in office, proving Webb wrong at a stroke. And there are other contenders: Afghanistan (which Blair persuaded Bush to “do” first—thanks again, Tony), growing inequality, persistent poverty, social immobility, financial meltdown, the war on asylum seekers, the betrayal of developing countries, Lebanon, Uzbekistan, the arms trade, torture, Heathrow expansion, Trident replacement, NHS privatisation, shredded civil liberties, new coal…

These outrages will end only when we are no longer prepared to tolerate them: when we are pissed off enough, organised enough, and create a social upheaval powerful enough to shake the British establishment to its foundations. That, as Orwell knew, is what “revolution” means.

http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php ... revolution
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby slimmouse » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:46 pm

Ive been "studying real stuff" for some quite time now.

The most important thing Ive learned is the fact that we shouldnt be paying for either money or energy.

Take that burden off humanity for a start.

Then we can deal with the wars that apparently result ( in the eyes of the slightly better informed) from energy shortages, along with "modern" medicine, education, food, religon, democracy, and all the rest of the bullshit

And they say Icke is mad?

fuk them.

Meanwhile Im just delighted that Brand has joined the disaffected club.
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Re: The Revolution-Now Thread (Russell B. & others).

Postby Nordic » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:03 pm

Is it even possible to have a "revolution" without people actually understanding what it is they're overthrowing?

It is impossible to even contemplate this in the USA. Just as a tiny example, we have watched twice, in two supposedly liberal states, proposals to simply label GMO poisons in our very own food supply fail! Fail due 100% to a few million dollars spent on some tv commercials and pundit-bribing. GMOs should be banned, yesterday, but we can't even get them labelled thanks to who owns the tv's that people willingly buy!

It's not even worth talking about the levels of pure-evil gangsterism that runs things at a national and international level.

You have to know who the enemies are first.

People have no idea, and there is almost zero hope that they ever will.

I say we start this "revolution" by taking over the law offices of Kissinger and Associates, and Baker Botts, finding their client lists, and immediately locking up every single person associated with those lists.

See how far that goes. Sure.

The bad guys are so derply entrenched. They're more deeply entrenched than any monarchy, because everybody fucking KNEW who the kings and queens and czars were.

The true members of the PTB are hiding. In plain sight. A few are public, like GHWB, but thanks to CNN and their incessant ring of the propaganda piece "flyboy" think he's a nice old war hero with a sadly stupid son.

People have no fucking idea.

Not to denigrate the Russell Brands and the Cindy Sheehans of the world, but calling for "revolution" is, at best, function as little more than a gentle shove of the Overton Window is the opposite direction from which it's been speeding along for generations now.

Which is a good thing, but it's pissing in the wind at this point. The bus is being driven straight off the cliff, and everyone is glued to their iphones.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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