The UK’s pro-Israel lobby in context.

[American Dream]

QUIT POSTING THE RULES HERE ...THAT IS AGAINST THE RULES !!

You are still deflecting thought away from your own responsibilities in this matter.

[seemslikeadream]

QUIT POSTING THE RULES HERE ...THAT IS AGAINST THE RULES !!

You are still deflecting thought away from your own responsibilities in this matter.

Take it up with Jeff.....if he decides to ban the discussion of DI then that will be that....until then STOP TRYING TO BE THE CENSOR OF THIS BOARD.... I will abide by Jeff's decision will you?

Until then YOU are not going to censor me!

[slimmouse]

American Dream » 20 Dec 2013 14:39"][size=101]The discussion of these posting guidelines and our community's respect for them includes some material related to David Icke but goes way, way beyond it.

By whose definition?

Heaven help us if its yours.

If you are to be believed for example, about half of this board, including myself are closet antisemitic fascists, who I have little doubt if you had your smug bigoted condescending ignorant way would be banned already.

I mean we're talking about someone who cant tell us if he believes the truth about a historical incident needs a law to defend it, or a simple explanation of what he believes money is?

Hardly the litmus test for any kind of intellect that may be required to make any kind of even half delicate judgement.

On more than one occasion, Ive considered leaving this board. I now realise what a huge mistake that would have been.

As long as youre here, Im gonna be here.

[American Dream]

If you are to be believed for example, about half of this board, including myself are closet antisemitic fascists, who I have little doubt if you had your smug bigoted condescending ignorant way would be banned already.

Citations, please...

[Wombaticus Rex]

What sucks about this eternal circular argument is that AD is making a spectacularly trite point -- he is not accusing us of being closet Fascists, just pointing out that a lot of the data points, researchers and phrases in this area -- ie, Israel, Jews and Central Banking -- are "problematic," as the college kids say, because of their association with Fascism.

Does this point need to be made? Yeah.

Does this point need to be made relentlessly, page after page in thread after thread, to the same people, and using material that is even more blatantly Fascist and Racist than the original offending material?

I'm skeptical about that one.

As always, I would encourage anyone & everyone here to stay calm in the courage of your convictions.

[American Dream]

Yes, the propagation of racist and rectionary themes in conspiracy literature is huge. Of course some authors are worse than others and some are totally over the top.

I just want us to do better- and I believe we can do better...

[seemslikeadream]

I'm going to try my damnedest to get in touch with Russell Brand ...probably will fail but I would love for him to come here and have a discussion with AD...

[Searcher08]

Yes, the propagation of racist and rectionary themes in conspiracy literature is huge. Of course some authors are worse than others and some are totally over the top.

I just want us to do better- and I believe we can do better...

Subjectively:
In people with whom I like to think I have (or aspire to) a colleagial relationship (= equals, interested in their ideas, wants to explore), with most people at RI; a part of that is being ok with other people having their positions, even if I really don't agree (or understand or are interested) in them myself.

This translates in a practical way in respecting the space for other people to express and interact without interference or hostility.

So for example, your TIDS thread. I dont interfere with it. That doesnt mean I agree with it, but I let it be, because it is important to you and sometimes just deliberately creating space is the most powerful thing to do.

The opposite of this approach is to have a black and white 'Hatelandia',
where there are:

anti-Semites,
Holocaust Deniers,
Texe Marrs,
David Icke,
Christian Zionists,
Jeff Rense,
Gilad Atzmon,
Russell Brand,
Norman Finklestein

occupying one area and then another map of TruthLandia occupied by people like

MeninBlack and the Randites (framed as the 'evidence based community'),
Reductionist Conspirituality academics,
Tony Greenstein and
The Palestinian Solidarity movement
The BDS movement
neo-Buddhist social activists.

If in your opinion, a post comes within Hatelandia airspace, all TruthLandia jets are scrambled and sent to intercept and shoot down the interlopers.

[American Dream]

Yes, the propagation of racist and rectionary themes in conspiracy literature is huge. Of course some authors are worse than others and some are totally over the top.

I just want us to do better- and I believe we can do better...

Subjectively:
In people with whom I like to think I have (or aspire to) a colleagial relationship (= equals, interested in their ideas, wants to explore), with most people at RI; a part of that is being ok with other people having their positions, even if I really don't agree (or understand or are interested) in them myself.

This translates in a practical way in respecting the space for other people to express and interact without interference or hostility.

So for example, your TIDS thread. I dont interfere with it. That doesnt mean I agree with it, but I let it be, because it is important to you and sometimes just deliberately creating space is the most powerful thing to do.

The opposite of this approach is to have a black and white 'Hatelandia',
where there are:

anti-Semites,
Holocaust Deniers,
Texe Marrs,
David Icke,
Christian Zionists,
Jeff Rense,
Gilad Atzmon,
Russell Brand,
Norman Finklestein

occupying one area and then another map of TruthLandia occupied by people like

MeninBlack and the Randites (framed as the 'evidence based community'),
Reductionist Conspirituality academics,
Tony Greenstein and
The Palestinian Solidarity movement
The BDS movement
neo-Buddhist social activists.

If in your opinion, a post comes within Hatelandia airspace, all TruthLandia jets are scrambled and sent to intercept and shoot down the interlopers.

I understand your point- and partly agree- but I think Jeff and others have created the guidelines with very good reason, also.

Speaking of black and white, I think we need to acknowledge more that there are some authors who clearly do or clearly do not position themselves within the guidelines of this board but others who very deliberately position themselves within the grey areas in order to try to take some kind of refuge in "plausible deniability".

[seemslikeadream]

within Hatelandia airspace, all TruthLandia jets are scrambled and sent to intercept and shoot down the interlopers.

[Searcher08]

There are times I have wanted to be outside those limits. In my own personal journey, post 9/11 I started to question *everything* in the external world.
First I went through a process of exploring alternative views, especially those that had been ostracised. I learned some useful lessons, which is that for me, the more I am exposed to 'dont go there!' vibes, often the more I will. A kind of Contrarian, Discordian spirit.
I also have come away with the sense that de-connecting my humanity from people whose views I really dont care for, by ostracising them, shouting them down or having the same argument a hundred times with them actually achieves nothing except a waste of time and emotional energy for all concerned.

Because they never ever ever changed through argumentation.

They change from what I can see from two things - changed perceptions and authentic communication which is about helping both them and oneself to get their needs met.

As the saying goes...
If you always do
What you've always done
You'll ALWAYS get
What you've ALWAYS got
So if what you are doing is NOT working
Do ANYTHING else

[American Dream]

There are times I have wanted to be outside those limits. In my own personal journey, post 9/11 I started to question *everything* in the external world.
First I went through a process of exploring alternative views, especially those that had been ostracised. I learned some useful lessons, which is that for me, the more I am exposed to 'dont go there!' vibes, often the more I will. A kind of Contrarian, Discordian spirit.
I also have come away with the sense that de-connecting my humanity from people whose views I really dont care for, by ostracising them, shouting them down or having the same argument a hundred times with them actually achieves nothing except a waste of time and emotional energy for all concerned.

Because they never ever ever changed through argumentation.

They change from what I can see from two things - changed perceptions and authentic communication which is about helping both them and oneself to get their needs met.

As the saying goes...
If you always do
What you've always done
You'll ALWAYS get
What you've ALWAYS got
So if what you are doing is NOT working
Do ANYTHING else

I can understand this. Personally, I much prefer the embrace of the Fortean as embodied by Recluse at Visup, which does not contain any dogmatic claims about Archons nor sketchy neo-Nazi talking points...

[Searcher08]

One of the issues that I have had is that the dynamics of Ickean conversations have never looked in detail at Icke-as-a-system. I find him interesting-in-detail, and would like to address some of the things that he does in 'connecting the dots'.

My own position is that I personally abhor both
A) anti-Semitic, racist, mysogynist, homophobic, Far Right philosophies
AND
B) preaching, censorious, elite-because-we-are oppressed/suffer, holier-than-thou, blinkered, patronizing, ostracizing, binary-logic, de-humanising reductionist ones

I really think they are both a pile of crap and as I said before, in a look at what is currently causing harm in the world, B is currently in the ascendent.

My biggest beef with you has been the people you have given encouragement to from Team B in service of fighting Team A.

To try and compare, how would you have felt if I had High-5'ed St0rmfr0nt people who had invaded RI to 'discuss' worldview B

My purpose in doing these 'reversals' is to invite you to consider a different point of view - I certainly dont consider you an unempathic person - I am just asking to shift viewpoint, apply empathy and tell me how it was.

I would like you to know...
Certainly for myself as someone whose family includes Jewish people, celebrates holidays together including eating and laughing around great funny meals where everyone talks at once and there are ten conversations happening at the same time, lived with Jewish people, have deep long term (multi-decade) friendships with Jewish people, directly worked with and for Jewish people, been in relationships with Jewish women and had a past life experience of life as a Rabbi teaching in a central European yeshiva

[American Dream]

My own position is that I personally abhor both
A) anti-Semitic, racist, mysogynist, homophobic, Far Right philosophies
AND
B) preaching, censorious, elite-because-we-are oppressed/suffer, holier-than-thou, blinkered, patronizing, ostracizing, binary-logic, de-humanising reductionist ones

I really think they are both a pile of crap and as I said before, in a look at what is currently causing harm in the world, B is currently in the ascendent.

My biggest beef with you has been the people you have given encouragement to from Team B in service of fighting Team A.

To try and compare, how would you have felt if I had High-5'ed St0rmfr0nt people who had invaded RI to 'discuss' worldview B

Can you be more specific about what you mean by "the people you have given encouragement to from Team B"?

Which specific people? What specific forms of encouragement?

[Searcher08]

Mason i Biderberg, posting his material and acting as an promoter and apologist for his binary logic worldview and epistemology of scientism, his reductionist technocratic philosophistry.

And whose worldview to me lies as far away from the spirit of RI as the neo-fascist worldviews you detest.

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