How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:38 am

But the underlying motivation is obvious—start with racism and the belief that Obama is a covert Muslim. Such whispered sentiments became commonplace in influential Israeli circles—the governing Likud party, religious parties and settlers. The proposed congressional action is intended to embrace an Israeli alliance as never before, and, added bonus, embarrass the president of the United States, which makes for good spin in Israel.

‘Israel Can Do No Wrong’: Jewish Dissent, Jewish Repression
Posted on Dec 30, 2013

AP/Tim Larsen
By Stanley Kutler

American Jews are expected by the Israeli government and by its American lobbying arms, such as AIPAC, to unequivocally support Israel against its very real enemies, but also against any criticism whether from abroad or within the American Jewish community. The prevailing mode is “Israel can do no wrong,” and AIPAC demands American Jews march in lockstep. But Israeli policies of the moment can and do betray values held by a large swath of American Jewry, including their independence of mind and the right to dissent, whether as Americans or as Jews.

The moment is difficult. Benjamin Netanyahu’s embarrassing, intemperate outbursts after the interim agreement between the United States and its allies and Iran further isolated Israel diplomatically. But the Israeli prime minister continues to work the back door as he recently announced that he had dispatched a delegation of Israeli military and intelligence experts to “advise” their American counterparts regarding Iran. We can be certain that he did not send any prominent and numerous Israeli experts who have courageously opposed his adventurism.

Now comes a “bipartisan” group of U.S. senators determined to join Israel in isolation. They are motivated by little else than electoral fears and campaign contributions. They have offered legislation imposing new, more severe sanctions on Iran at a most inopportune time, and a pledge of American diplomatic and military support if the Israelis attack Iran. Talk about blank checks. Israeli lobby groups such as AIPAC actively support the measure, meaning so does the Israeli government. It seemed inconceivable that anything could surpass Netanyahu’s audacity and obtuseness. Maybe Congress dysfunctional is better than it is functional.

Since Barack Obama emerged on the national political scene, there has been a sub-current of belief that he was “bad for the Jews,” and would undermine the Israelis. Given Obama’s circle of Jewish friends, financial backers and ardent supporters, this was absurd on its face. But the underlying motivation is obvious—start with racism and the belief that Obama is a covert Muslim. Such whispered sentiments became commonplace in influential Israeli circles—the governing Likud party, religious parties and settlers. The proposed congressional action is intended to embrace an Israeli alliance as never before, and, added bonus, embarrass the president of the United States, which makes for good spin in Israel.

American Jews do not support such knee-jerk reactions. Polls consistently show backing for Obama at a very high level; further, they reject (albeit passively) the Israeli maintenance of the occupation and oppose an Israeli airstrike against Iran. It is not rocket science to see the downside for both Israelis and Americans if Iran is attacked. Would it destroy Iran’s future capability to develop nuclear weapons? Would it destroy Iran’s peaceful nuclear development—to which it has every right, notwithstanding Israel’s singular objections? And then what of Israel’s place in the international community—let alone the United States’ pre-eminent role in international leadership?

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Fortunately, a counterweight of 10 other senators, significantly including the heads of the Senate Banking, Intelligence, Armed Services, Appropriations, Judiciary and Energy committees, warned that additional sanctions now would only “play into the hands of those in Iran who are most eager to see negotiations fail.” Only fear and possibly politeness prevented them from saying that it also played into the hands of Israeli elements who oppose any settlement with Iran. Sens. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., and Carl Levin, D-Mich.—and not insignificantly, they are Jewish—only delicately criticized their bellicose colleagues, as did the administration’s chief spokesman, Secretary of State John Kerry.
Beyond the international flap, American Jews ought to be concerned about how controversial Israeli positions and statements are causing significant cleavages within our own Jewish community. An undeservedly little-known website, MuzzleWatch, which is devoted to tracking the stifling of open debate about American-Israeli foreign policy, is most instructive.

MuzzleWatch reported an incident at Harvard in November, when the university’s Hillel student organization barred Avraham Burg, the former speaker of the Israeli Knesset, from giving a speech in its building. The governing body, not the students, complained that the talk was co-sponsored by the Harvard College Palestine Solidarity Committee, as well as several Jewish pro-peace groups. (Burg instead spoke at a dorm.) A Harvard student appropriately responded that this was “an attack on free speech in its most naked form.” “I’m not sure what they were afraid of—people with all kinds of political views had a very constructive conversation with Mr. Burg,” she added. Are we to believe that nearly 8 million Israeli Jews think alike?

Burg is a well-known Israeli political figure; his father was the longtime minister for religious affairs in Israel’s founding decades. Views such as his apparently are dangerous for the tender minds of Harvard students. In 2003, he published an article in, of all places, Israel Today, a right-wing Israeli newspaper owned by casino magnate Sheldon Adelson, in which Burg observed: “Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centers of Israeli escapism.”

Burg is reviled in Israel for breaking the country’s long-standing “nuclear ambiguity” and denounced as a self-hating Jew because of his criticism of the religious establishment and the occupation, among other deviations from the now-prevailing nationalist, right-wing Israeli ideology. Commentary magazine denounced his attempt to define a post-Zionist Israeli state as an exercise in “despising Israeli democracy.”

Swarthmore College’s Hillel chapter also tried to have a balanced discussion of the Palestinian question, but the governing body prevented it. Later, apropos of nothing, the chapter was vigorously denounced by the notoriously intemperate John Podhoretz, the hereditary editor of Commentary.

Parenthetically, the latter affair illustrates only too sadly what the media choose to report. Politico described a public panel discussion as strictly a personality clash between some well-known names in the Jewish community over snubs and insults, real or alleged. MuzzleWatch, however, noted that the outburst was over the very real repression at Swarthmore.

The Swarthmore Hillel student board’s reaction to the clumsy attempt at censorship undoubtedly triggered Podhoretz’s outburst. Hillel International’s declared policy prohibits student groups from partnering with organizations or hosting speakers who deny Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state, or who “[d]elegitimize, demonize, or apply a double standard to Israel,” or who support any boycott of, divestment from or sanctions against Israel.

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The students responded with a direct attack on the barring of speakers such as Burg. Such policies, they declared, insulted the memory of their namesake, Rabbi Hillel, “who was famed for encouraging debate.” They attacked attempts to present “a monolithic face pertaining to Zionism that does not accurately reflect the diverse opinions of young American Jews.” The Swarthmore chapter then declared itself to be an “Open Hillel,” one that would encourage “dialogue within the diverse and pluralistic Jewish student body”—meaning that it would host a partner or any speaker at its own discretion and retain “the values of open debate and discourse espoused by Rabbi Hillel.”
Beyond AIPAC’s destructive—and let us hope, self-defeating—lobbying efforts, American Jews should be concerned with what is happening in their own communities. AIPAC and its like-minded allies in the United States can praise Israeli democracy, but first they must respect American democracy. The Israeli government and the various lobby groups in the United States would do well to heed the stark reality of polls revealing ever-declining support for Israel among younger American Jews.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
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Don’t forget that.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby jakell » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:48 am

American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:50 am wrote:
No, I'm not avoiding a "clear issue" at all. Your comments here have only a tenuous link to your previous (vague) allusions to something concerning "Hasbara / Zionists".

Quibbling over details is one of the big M.O.'s of some of the more notorious denier types. Is that all you've got?

Because I'm imagining that if you had anything more earthshaking, more revelatory- directly about the ultimate validity of Holocaust Denial or something like that- you would have said it by now.


Quibbling over details is not a specificly one-sided MO, it is simply rigour applied to a complex subject. It is also the MO of Denier-confronters too, and possibly anyone else who has more tham a passing interest in any subject.

This reminds me of a two part rearguard action sometimes played by deniers when they meet their match.... ie if you really know your stuff they label you as 'obsessive', and if you don't know it then you are 'dumb'. It's a lose-lose situation if you accept the options offered.

It's not just the aforementioned deniers who do this, it's possibly anyone whose reach has demonstrably exceeded their grasp in any subject.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:54 am

jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:48 pm wrote:
American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:50 am wrote:
No, I'm not avoiding a "clear issue" at all. Your comments here have only a tenuous link to your previous (vague) allusions to something concerning "Hasbara / Zionists".

Quibbling over details is one of the big M.O.'s of some of the more notorious denier types. Is that all you've got?

Because I'm imagining that if you had anything more earthshaking, more revelatory- directly about the ultimate validity of Holocaust Denial or something like that- you would have said it by now.


Quibbling over details is not a specific MO, it is simply rigour applied to a complex subject. It is also the MO of Denier confronters too, and possibly anyone else who has more tham a passing interet in any subject.

This reminds me of a two part rearguard action sometimes played by deniers when they meet their match.... ie if you really know your stuff they label you as 'obsessive', and if you don't know it then you are 'dumb'. It's a lose-lose situation if you accept the options offered.

It's not just the aforementioned deniers who do this, it's possibly anyone whose reach has demonstrably exceeded their grasp in any subject.

No- as I'm suggesting, quibbling over details is the most common dodge amongst today's Holocaust deniers and there has to be a good reason for me to do it. If, on the other hand, Searcher has something "more earthshaking, more revelatory- directly about the ultimate validity of Holocaust Denial or something like that"- I'll be more willing to put some time and energy into engaging with it.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby jakell » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:09 am

American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:54 am wrote:
jakell » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:48 pm wrote:
American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:50 am wrote:
No, I'm not avoiding a "clear issue" at all. Your comments here have only a tenuous link to your previous (vague) allusions to something concerning "Hasbara / Zionists".

Quibbling over details is one of the big M.O.'s of some of the more notorious denier types. Is that all you've got?

Because I'm imagining that if you had anything more earthshaking, more revelatory- directly about the ultimate validity of Holocaust Denial or something like that- you would have said it by now.


Quibbling over details is not a specific MO, it is simply rigour applied to a complex subject. It is also the MO of Denier confronters too, and possibly anyone else who has more tham a passing interet in any subject.

This reminds me of a two part rearguard action sometimes played by deniers when they meet their match.... ie if you really know your stuff they label you as 'obsessive', and if you don't know it then you are 'dumb'. It's a lose-lose situation if you accept the options offered.

It's not just the aforementioned deniers who do this, it's possibly anyone whose reach has demonstrably exceeded their grasp in any subject.

No- as I'm suggesting, quibbling over details is the most common dodge amongst today's Holocaust deniers and there has to be a good reason for me to do it. If, on the other hand, Searcher has something "more earthshaking, more revelatory- directly about the ultimate validity of Holocaust Denial or something like that"- I'll be more willing to put some time and energy into engaging with it.


It's hardly a dodge when it's actually the most difficult approach. a dodge is most likely to involve avoiding details, not addressing them. I think the crux here lies in the word 'quibbling' which sounds to me like the projection of small mindededness onto someone, ie the introduction of ad hominem.

I don't see why Searcher is expected to provide something 'earthshaking', I would say there is plenty of meat on this bone already. Are you becoming bored with your own thread?
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:26 am

American Dream » 02 Jan 2014 04:35 wrote:
slimmouse » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:22 pm wrote:I find the notion of anyone hiding the inherent antisemitism of their nature by supporting a group of Jewish people who oppose the illegal occupation of Palestine to be ,quite frankly plain fucking stupid.

Because to me, it's counter-intuitve.

But Im open to persuasion.

Who are these alibi seekers? Any on here do you think?

Why do they choose this particular group for an alibi?

You can really help the discussion here AD.


I'm thinking of the kind of people who support the racist discourse of Israel Shamir, Ken O'Keefe, Gilad Atzmon, Jeff Rense, and others of that ilk. Friends of the Palestinians they would all claim to be, even though they are mostly unwanted by those they claim to make common cause with.

Somehow- and I think you already know this full well- amongst these so-called "friends of Palestine" are those who tend to appropriate the words and images of the Neteurei Karta ultraorthodox sect as symbols of Jewish dissent from the Israeli Right's agenda. Never mind that the NK Jews are pretty marginal in regards to the established Palestinian solidarity movement and have really questionable politics- they have achieved the status of poster child for some of these people and I'm not entirely sure why...


This qoute, from wikipedia on the beliefs of Neturai Karta might be of help. The sentence in bold is quite a pointer, for me at least.

Neturei Karta stresses what is said in the mussaf Shemona Esrei of Yom Tov, that because of their sins, the Jewish people went into exile from the Land of Israel ("umipnei chatoeinu golinu meiartzeinu"). Additionally, they maintain the view – based on the Babylonian Talmud[10] – that any form of forceful recapture of the Land of Israel is a violation of divine will. They believe that the restoration of the Land of Israel to the Jews should only happen with the coming of the Messiah, not by self-determination.

Neturei Karta believes that the exile of the Jews can only end with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts to establish Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel are sinful. In Neturei Karta's view, Zionism is a presumptuous affront against God. Among their arguments against Zionism was a Talmudic discussion about portions of the Bible regarding a pact known as the Three Oaths made between God, the Jewish people, and the nations of the world, when the Jews were sent into exile. One provision of the pact was that the Jews would not rebel against the non-Jewish world that gave them sanctuary; a second was that they would not immigrate en masse to the Land of Israel. In return the gentile nations promised not to persecute the Jews. By rebelling against this pact, they argued, the Jewish People were engaging in rebellion against God.

The Neturei Karta synagogues follow the customs of the Gaon of Vilna, due to Neturei Karta's origin within the Lithuanian rather than Hasidic branch of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Neturei Karta is not a Hasidic but a Litvish group, they are often mistaken for Hasidim because their style of dress (including a shtreimel on Shabbos) is very similar to that of Hasidim. This style of dress is not unique to Neturei Karta, but is also the style of other Jerusalem Litvaks, such as Rabbi Yosef Sholom Eliashiv and his followers. Furthermore, Shomer Emunim, a Hasidic group with a similar anti-Zionist ideology, is often bundled together with Neturei Karta. Typically, the Jerusalem Neturei Karta will keep the customs of the "Old Yishuv" of the city of Jerusalem even when living outside of Jerusalem or even when living abroad, as a demonstration of their love and connection to the Holy Land.
.

I bet David Duke and co. just loves that.

As far as Im concerned, NK can believe what they wish as long as no one suffers, but its easy to understand how the idea that all of this stuff is about the will of Mr Skygod ,will hold big appeal to "christians" of the zealotic nature, who have failed to look at sprituality, or "God" if you will, from a far more personal perspective, whilst still clinging to the notion of the second coming.

One is left with little to conclude, other than the fact that this whole organised religion deal needs rapidly rethinking by every last one of us who profess to have faith.

Or revising, if you will.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:12 am

jakell » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:09 am wrote:
It's hardly a dodge when it's actually the most difficult approach. a dodge is most likely to involve avoiding details, not addressing them. I think the crux here lies in the word 'quibbling' which sounds to me like the projection of small mindededness onto someone, ie the introduction of ad hominem.

I don't see why Searcher is expected to provide something 'earthshaking', I would say there is plenty of meat on this bone already. Are you becoming bored with your own thread?


No- I don't personally agree. Of course I'm not wedded absolutely to any particular Establishment narrative and of course I'm familiar with the fact that it's entirely possible to dispute the fine details of any of those narratives. This is what Irving, Zundel and others of that sort have always done, as we both already know quite well.

While you are cheering on these efforts, I will be doing something else- something that generates more light than heat, I hope...
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:20 am

slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:26 am wrote:
American Dream » 02 Jan 2014 04:35 wrote:
slimmouse » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:22 pm wrote:I find the notion of anyone hiding the inherent antisemitism of their nature by supporting a group of Jewish people who oppose the illegal occupation of Palestine to be ,quite frankly plain fucking stupid.

Because to me, it's counter-intuitve.

But Im open to persuasion.

Who are these alibi seekers? Any on here do you think?

Why do they choose this particular group for an alibi?

You can really help the discussion here AD.


I'm thinking of the kind of people who support the racist discourse of Israel Shamir, Ken O'Keefe, Gilad Atzmon, Jeff Rense, and others of that ilk. Friends of the Palestinians they would all claim to be, even though they are mostly unwanted by those they claim to make common cause with.

Somehow- and I think you already know this full well- amongst these so-called "friends of Palestine" are those who tend to appropriate the words and images of the Neteurei Karta ultraorthodox sect as symbols of Jewish dissent from the Israeli Right's agenda. Never mind that the NK Jews are pretty marginal in regards to the established Palestinian solidarity movement and have really questionable politics- they have achieved the status of poster child for some of these people and I'm not entirely sure why...


This qoute, from wikipedia on the beliefs of Neturai Karta might be of help. The sentence in bold is quite a pointer, for me at least.

Neturei Karta stresses what is said in the mussaf Shemona Esrei of Yom Tov, that because of their sins, the Jewish people went into exile from the Land of Israel ("umipnei chatoeinu golinu meiartzeinu"). Additionally, they maintain the view – based on the Babylonian Talmud[10] – that any form of forceful recapture of the Land of Israel is a violation of divine will. They believe that the restoration of the Land of Israel to the Jews should only happen with the coming of the Messiah, not by self-determination.

Neturei Karta believes that the exile of the Jews can only end with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts to establish Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel are sinful. In Neturei Karta's view, Zionism is a presumptuous affront against God. Among their arguments against Zionism was a Talmudic discussion about portions of the Bible regarding a pact known as the Three Oaths made between God, the Jewish people, and the nations of the world, when the Jews were sent into exile. One provision of the pact was that the Jews would not rebel against the non-Jewish world that gave them sanctuary; a second was that they would not immigrate en masse to the Land of Israel. In return the gentile nations promised not to persecute the Jews. By rebelling against this pact, they argued, the Jewish People were engaging in rebellion against God.

The Neturei Karta synagogues follow the customs of the Gaon of Vilna, due to Neturei Karta's origin within the Lithuanian rather than Hasidic branch of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Neturei Karta is not a Hasidic but a Litvish group, they are often mistaken for Hasidim because their style of dress (including a shtreimel on Shabbos) is very similar to that of Hasidim. This style of dress is not unique to Neturei Karta, but is also the style of other Jerusalem Litvaks, such as Rabbi Yosef Sholom Eliashiv and his followers. Furthermore, Shomer Emunim, a Hasidic group with a similar anti-Zionist ideology, is often bundled together with Neturei Karta. Typically, the Jerusalem Neturei Karta will keep the customs of the "Old Yishuv" of the city of Jerusalem even when living outside of Jerusalem or even when living abroad, as a demonstration of their love and connection to the Holy Land.
.

I bet David Duke and co. just loves that.

As far as Im concerned, NK can believe what they wish as long as no one suffers, but its easy to understand how the idea that all of this stuff is about the will of Mr Skygod ,will hold big appeal to "christians" of the zealotic nature, who have failed to look at sprituality, or "God" if you will, from a far more personal perspective, whilst still clinging to the notion of the second coming.

One is left with little to conclude, other than the fact that this whole organised religion deal needs rapidly rethinking by every last one of us who profess to have faith.

Or revising, if you will.


OK- sure. They still oppose Zionism more on dogmatic theological grounds rather than having particularly good political thinking in general. And none of this changes my previous statement about the cultish NK and some of their "supporters":

I'm thinking of the kind of people who support the racist discourse of Israel Shamir, Ken O'Keefe, Gilad Atzmon, Jeff Rense, and others of that ilk. Friends of the Palestinians they would all claim to be, even though they are mostly unwanted by those they claim to make common cause with.

Somehow- and I think you already know this full well- amongst these so-called "friends of Palestine" are those who tend to appropriate the words and images of the Neteurei Karta ultraorthodox sect as symbols of Jewish dissent from the Israeli Right's agenda. Never mind that the NK Jews are pretty marginal in regards to the established Palestinian solidarity movement and have really questionable politics- they have achieved the status of poster child for some of these people and I'm not entirely sure why...
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:06 am

So maybe Neteurei Karta are the "Magic Jews" who can- through their symbolic presence alone- turn even those who are widely derided as racist, wacko etc. into people who are somehow not Judeophobes, not anti-Semitic, even if those people are banging the drum for Irving, Zundel and other such grossly bigoted Holocaust Deniers/Revisionists?

That must be some magic mojo they got.

The "Some of my best friends" Principle on steroids...
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:17 am

I'm thinking of the kind of people who support the racist discourse of Israel Shamir, Ken O'Keefe, Gilad Atzmon, Jeff Rense, and others of that ilk. Friends of the Palestinians they would all claim to be, even though they are mostly unwanted by those they claim to make common cause with.

Somehow- and I think you already know this full well- amongst these so-called "friends of Palestine" are those who tend to appropriate the words and images of the Neteurei Karta ultraorthodox sect as symbols of Jewish dissent from the Israeli Right's agenda. Never mind that the NK Jews are pretty marginal in regards to the established Palestinian solidarity movement and have really questionable politics- they have achieved the status of poster child for some of these people and I'm not entirely sure why...
[/quote]

Well of course you still are, and of course none of your thinkng has changed. I havent seen much change at all in you over the last 6 years, and I fear that youre actually incapable oif it, which is probably not a good thing.

I do think that It would be really beneficial also meanwhile, if you appropriated as much of your time talking about all the other bad people in the world , instead of being little more than almost an excessive compulsive when it comes to the single strain of racism defined as "Anti-semitism", (which I think we can agree upon, is a different defintion than Judeophobia ) Either or is not an option for some. You see, according to some, its always antisemitism, and never judeophobia.

And Im not entirely sure why you have this obsession. Anything you can help me with?

Quick story AD. 30 years ago I was an avid Thatcher fan. I thought all arabs were terrorists, and that whilst Western Govnts did some bad stuff, it was only cos "the other guys" were doing it too. Not much of my thinking changed over the course of the next 20 or so years, probably cos to be honest, none of all of that interested me much. I was caught on the carousel. I believe now that at that point, Id turned out just as expected, "academically qualifed", working hard, thinking small.

Then along came the magic lantern, combined with what I now consider to be something of a "mystical synchronicity " ( its the best I can do) This presented the opportunity to look at the world from a different perspective, courtesy of the freeflow of uncensored information. Suddenly all those unresolved questions I had were starting to open up Not that I didnt swallow my share of posion along the way. I think anyone, who claims they havent is not being honest with themselves

But Im very comfortable with where I am now, So feel free to proffer your opinions, and I'll proffer mine. Its no big deal really.

We are all a work in progress AD. Something well worth keeping in mind.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:41 am

jakell » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:48 am wrote:
American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:50 am wrote:
No, I'm not avoiding a "clear issue" at all. Your comments here have only a tenuous link to your previous (vague) allusions to something concerning "Hasbara / Zionists".

Quibbling over details is one of the big M.O.'s of some of the more notorious denier types. Is that all you've got?

Because I'm imagining that if you had anything more earthshaking, more revelatory- directly about the ultimate validity of Holocaust Denial or something like that- you would have said it by now.


Quibbling over details is not a specificly one-sided MO, it is simply rigour applied to a complex subject. It is also the MO of Denier-confronters too, and possibly anyone else who has more tham a passing interest in any subject.

This reminds me of a two part rearguard action sometimes played by deniers when they meet their match.... ie if you really know your stuff they label you as 'obsessive', and if you don't know it then you are 'dumb'. It's a lose-lose situation if you accept the options offered.

It's not just the aforementioned deniers who do this, it's possibly anyone whose reach has demonstrably exceeded their grasp in any subject.


The fact that 'engaging with facts' is reframed as 'quibbling over details' leads to consequences... of people not getting their questions answered.

What I see in this thread is 'holier than thou' ideology masking a refusal to do the hard rigourous work in the evidence department.
I make this statement based on AD's assertions about NK from a position of knowing Sweet FA about them and but still characterising them in a patroning way - without providing any basis for those characterisations.

What I have come away with from AD's responses so far towards the focus of the thread:

Everyone you meet is a potential Denier

1 Dont communicate towards 'apparently' sincere questions asked.
2 Be immediately suspicious - questions are *always* the MO of Deniers.
3 Treat forensic evidence like it is the informational equivalent of your having a root canal
4 If you feel forced to engaged with evidence, do so with the graciousness that calls into question all motives of the questioner -
5 By default, assign 'questioning' behaviour to your enemies.
6 If any aspect of the Holocaust is asked about, that asking indicates bad faith at least and deserves a comparison to NAZIs.
7 Dont reply to specific points raised.
8 Keep repeating the same talking points as if repitition makes them more real.
9 If people who you think are potential Deniers says something, always dispute it;
10 If the same points are raised by people you agree with, then accept it.
11 Never read content on NK provided by people who you consider are problematic - it will be a Denier trap
12 Dismiss NK primary source content without reading it - and repeat 'this is what Deniers do'.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:21 am

slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:17 am wrote:
I'm thinking of the kind of people who support the racist discourse of Israel Shamir, Ken O'Keefe, Gilad Atzmon, Jeff Rense, and others of that ilk. Friends of the Palestinians they would all claim to be, even though they are mostly unwanted by those they claim to make common cause with.

Somehow- and I think you already know this full well- amongst these so-called "friends of Palestine" are those who tend to appropriate the words and images of the Neteurei Karta ultraorthodox sect as symbols of Jewish dissent from the Israeli Right's agenda. Never mind that the NK Jews are pretty marginal in regards to the established Palestinian solidarity movement and have really questionable politics- they have achieved the status of poster child for some of these people and I'm not entirely sure why...


Well of course you still are, and of course none of your thinkng has changed. I havent seen much change at all in you over the last 6 years, and I fear that youre actually incapable oif it, which is probably not a good thing.

I do think that It would be really beneficial also meanwhile, if you appropriated as much of your time talking about all the other bad people in the world , instead of being little more than almost an excessive compulsive when it comes to the single strain of racism defined as "Anti-semitism", (which I think we can agree upon, is a different defintion than Judeophobia ) Either or is not an option for some. You see, according to some, its always antisemitism, and never judeophobia.

And Im not entirely sure why you have this obsession. Anything you can help me with?

Quick story AD. 30 years ago I was an avid Thatcher fan. I thought all arabs were terrorists, and that whilst Western Govnts did some bad stuff, it was only cos "the other guys" were doing it too. Not much of my thinking changed over the course of the next 20 or so years, probably cos to be honest, none of all of that interested me much. I was caught on the carousel. I believe now that at that point, Id turned out just as expected, "academically qualifed", working hard, thinking small.

Then along came the magic lantern, combined with what I now consider to be something of a "mystical synchronicity " ( its the best I can do) This presented the opportunity to look at the world from a different perspective, courtesy of the freeflow of uncensored information. Suddenly all those unresolved questions I had were starting to open up Not that I didnt swallow my share of posion along the way. I think anyone, who claims they havent is not being honest with themselves

But Im very comfortable with where I am now, So feel free to proffer your opinions, and I'll proffer mine. Its no big deal really.

We are all a work in progress AD. Something well worth keeping in mind.


I see myself very differently than the picture you paint.. I've actually evolved a great deal in my view of the world these last several years- not in the form of an ideological conversion from this-to-that but in an overall deepening of concepts, in a more informed view of the world. You've actually helped with that some, slim- not because I'm persuaded by any of your fundamental concepts but more by enriching my picture of where things can go off the rails despite our best intentions, to be quite honest with you.

As to your declaration regarding a: "single strain of racism defined as "Anti-semitism", (which I think we can agree upon, is a different defintion than Judeophobia)", I don't understand what you're saying at all. Maybe you can clarify the difference between the two terms to you?

As to the "freeflow of uncensored information", I do appreciate Jeff's guidelines a lot- they surely improve the signal-to-noise ratio around here a lot. As to interventions by the State, I'm much more ambivalent about that. I have long known- even though I have mixed feelings about all that they do- the Antifascist types who go to where the neo-Nazis are and sometimes protest peacefully, sometimes fight them or try to shut them down.

Which leads me back to Holocaust Denier types like: Barnes, Butz, Carto, Zündel, Irving, Rassinier, Griffin, Hoffman, Rockwell etc.

Anybody who tries to tell me these are admirable characters, I'm going to put a clear call out to their innermost soul: "You're lost sister/brother- get right!"
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:36 am

Searcher08 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:41 am wrote:
jakell » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:48 am wrote:
American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:50 am wrote:
No, I'm not avoiding a "clear issue" at all. Your comments here have only a tenuous link to your previous (vague) allusions to something concerning "Hasbara / Zionists".

Quibbling over details is one of the big M.O.'s of some of the more notorious denier types. Is that all you've got?

Because I'm imagining that if you had anything more earthshaking, more revelatory- directly about the ultimate validity of Holocaust Denial or something like that- you would have said it by now.


Quibbling over details is not a specificly one-sided MO, it is simply rigour applied to a complex subject. It is also the MO of Denier-confronters too, and possibly anyone else who has more tham a passing interest in any subject.

This reminds me of a two part rearguard action sometimes played by deniers when they meet their match.... ie if you really know your stuff they label you as 'obsessive', and if you don't know it then you are 'dumb'. It's a lose-lose situation if you accept the options offered.

It's not just the aforementioned deniers who do this, it's possibly anyone whose reach has demonstrably exceeded their grasp in any subject.


The fact that 'engaging with facts' is reframed as 'quibbling over details' leads to consequences... of people not getting their questions answered.

What I see in this thread is 'holier than thou' ideology masking a refusal to do the hard rigourous work in the evidence department.
I make this statement based on AD's assertions about NK from a position of knowing Sweet FA about them and but still characterising them in a patroning way - without providing any basis for those characterisations.

What I have come away with from AD's responses so far towards the focus of the thread:

Everyone you meet is a potential Denier

1 Dont communicate towards 'apparently' sincere questions asked.
2 Be immediately suspicious - questions are *always* the MO of Deniers.
3 Treat forensic evidence like it is the informational equivalent of your having a root canal
4 If you feel forced to engaged with evidence, do so with the graciousness that calls into question all motives of the questioner -
5 By default, assign 'questioning' behaviour to your enemies.
6 If any aspect of the Holocaust is asked about, that asking indicates bad faith at least and deserves a comparison to NAZIs.
7 Dont reply to specific points raised.
8 Keep repeating the same talking points as if repitition makes them more real.
9 If people who you think are potential Deniers says something, always dispute it;
10 If the same points are raised by people you agree with, then accept it.
11 Never read content on NK provided by people who you consider are problematic - it will be a Denier trap
12 Dismiss NK primary source content without reading it - and repeat 'this is what Deniers do'.


Searcher- my biggest objection to quibbling over the details of established Holocaust narratives is that I don't have the time/energy/motivation to do so, based on the probable results. Same holds true for the NK Jews- I get that they are anti-Zionist and that theological dogmas are the prime motivator. I have no objection to reading their stuff- I just haven't been very motivated to do so.

Since we both probably agree that all narratives regarding the Nazis' mass murder programs must be viewed to a certain degree as socially constructed artifacts and that specific details can certainly be disputed to a point, I'm wondering what sort of thesis you're trying to uphold that is worth the effort for either/both of us?

Also, do you think that the Denier types I mentioned like: Barnes, Butz, Carto, Zündel, Irving, Rassinier, Griffin, Hoffman, Rockwell etc. are in some way admirable characters? Reprehensible characters? Grossly racist? And/or what else?
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:40 am

As to your declaration regarding a: "single strain of racism defined as "Anti-semitism", (which I think we can agree upon, is a different defintion than Judeophobia)", I don't understand what you're saying at all. Maybe you can clarify the difference between the two terms to you?





Well, to me its the difference between fearing someone and hating them. Both arent exactly positive emotions, but hating someone certainly has a moe negative impact on the minds of all of those people who are often, completely unfairly tarred with the hate brush, (not that I dispute antisemites exist, and they certainly need some form of psychological counselling IMHO.).

To say nothing of the hated. I mean ,If somebody told me they wanted to speak to me, because I believed they were afraid of me, I should say that my angst would be considerably less, than if I believed they hated me.

Judeophobia is of course fear of Jews, and Antisemitism is hatred. I wouldnt wish to count the tally of those two words in any discussion about the Jewish race, because it would be a fukn landslide

Whilst we should never say never, for some people hatred of others based on ethnithicity will be a hard ignorance to break. Principally due to societal programming from above.

For others however , possibly just a better insight into how all of this hate stuff works, and how it perpetuates collective human misery may easily suffice.. I think the Zawi Hawass story I posted, illustrates the clear dangers of lying through your teeth knowing that this will incite hatred.

Because as someone recently stated under oath, hating anyone because of their genetic code, is just about as mindless as it gets, ultimately.

And Its really hard to argue with that when you get right down to it.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby American Dream » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:10 am

slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:40 am wrote:Because as someone recently stated under oath, hating anyone because of their genetic code, is just about as mindless as it gets, ultimately.


It should be clarified that even though "Race" is fundamentally a social construct, Jewishness does not equal a "Race". There is certainly no defining genetic marker of Jewishness.
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Re: How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

Postby slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:22 am

American Dream » 02 Jan 2014 14:10 wrote:
slimmouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:40 am wrote:Because as someone recently stated under oath, hating anyone because of their genetic code, is just about as mindless as it gets, ultimately.


It should be clarified that even though "Race" is fundamentally a social construct, Jewishness does not equal a "Race". There is certainly no defining genetic marker of Jewishness.


Well in that case, if Jewishness is neither ethnic, nor genetic, what is the rationale of anyone for hating, by youre definition whiat is essentially a social construct ?

Because if Jewishness is a social construct, then judging by its success in producing highly intelligent, very "successful" ( by most peoples definition ) humans, then it sounds as much like the green monster, namely envy, as much as anything.

And if that sounds about right, then surely, whilst envy will breed hatred in some, hatred is surely not the operative term, is it?
Last edited by slimmouse on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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