Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby RocketMan » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:56 pm

Kevin Ryan, whom I have the greatest respect for (and who's got a sledgehammer of a book out called "Another 19 - Investigating legitimate 9/11 suspects"), wades into these murky waters in his blog. He strikes a more measured tone than Sibel Edmonds and keeps his arguments more succinct. There is a kernel of something unsettling here...

http://digwithin.net/2014/01/12/greenwald/

Greenwald Responds to Critics, Rejects Conspiracism

Posted on January 12, 2014 by Kevin Ryan

The story of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden has dominated the mainstream news for the last seven months. During that time, questions about Snowden and his disclosures have framed the national discussion about domestic surveillance. Those disclosures have not resulted in any changes to U.S. domestic surveillance practices to date. Instead, the U.S. Justice Department has re-certified the programs in question as Americans discuss media talking points like—Is Snowden a traitor or a hero? A growing number of people are looking behind that media-generated framework, however, and are beginning to wonder if the right questions are even being asked.

What we know about Edward Snowden is that he was a Special Forces recruit in the U.S. Army, an NSA employee, an NSA contractor for at least two different companies, and a CIA employee under cover. All of this occurred in a span of only a few years and he was able to command six-figure salaries despite having no education beyond a high school equivalency certification. Of the many positions he held in a period of approximately six years, the most long-lived appears to have been his work with the CIA where this 20-something spy was, in his own words, a “senior advisor.”

When asked about his background and motivations, Snowden said, “I’m just another guy.” He went on to say that his leaking of NSA secrets was what we needed to know, implying that it was all we needed to know, about NSA spying. “This is the truth… This is what’s happening,” he said. The remainder of the story has been presented in stories like those by The New York Times, which paint Snowden in an increasingly favorable light. The Times, which was called a mouthpiece for the Obama Administration by Glenn Greenwald, the reporter chosen by Snowden to reveal his story, has come out calling for clemency for Snowden.

However, the questions about the evolving Snowden story have grown rapidly and continue to present challenges to citizens who are alert to the prevalence of corporate media propaganda. How many stolen documents are there and who has access to them? Why have only a tiny fraction of the documents been released seven months after they were first disclosed by Snowden? Why has Glenn Greenwald made a deal with the owner of Paypal Corporation—the company whose former executives now produce the technologies used for domestic spying?

Emotions and Responses

The biggest hurdle to understanding the Snowden story has been the emotional reaction to asking questions about it. Those who have dared to question the story have been met with ridicule and misplaced condemnation.

Author Naomi Wolf asked some straightforward questions about Snowden’s slick introduction in comparison to other whistleblower stories. Her questions elicited derision from pundits, some even suggesting that if Wolf didn’t buy into Snowden then she must be an NSA operative.

Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds’ questions were met with ad hominem attacks from Greenwald. Writing that Edmonds was “too stupid and/or crazy to know,“ Greenwald summarily excused the founder of the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition from further dialogue on the issue.

My recent article resulted in mild hysteria from a few who believe that no aspect of the Snowden story should ever be questioned, regardless of how that story evolves in the mainstream media. One such reaction resulted in a hit piece based on the false premise that I was calling Snowden a liar. The author called for a public apology until he realized that it was his own error that required an apology (cue crickets).

Thankfully, Greenwald has offered a few answers at his blog. Unfortunately, the emotional nature of those responses raises more questions. What’s more, the growing rancor and distrust regarding this story is resulting in citizens losing sight of the actual NSA crimes being committed and our decreasing ability to stop or prosecute them.

Greenwald’s answers appeared at his blog in two installments, one in December and another in January. In those posts he goes on at length about the fact that reporters work for money. Although Edmonds has made the point that whistleblowing should not be a profit-making venture for anyone, in general no one denies that reporters work for money. And if Greenwald gets fabulously rich from all of it, that doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that Greenwald still hasn’t answered some of the more important questions. For example, has he made any kind of deal with government or corporate representatives with regard to this story or the release of material from Snowden? What are his views on the coincidence that several of Pierre Omidyar’s former Paypal colleagues are strong supporters of NSA spying and are the people developing the technologies for that spying?

Another unanswered question is a simple one. How many documents are there? Estimates have ranged from thousands to nearly two million. Only Greenwald and Laura Poitras have the entire cache, according to Greenwald. But portions of the stolen documents have been distributed to many mainstream news organizations and “tens of thousands of these documents are in the possession of The New York Times, The Guardian, ProPublica, and The Washington Post.” A subset of more than 50,000 of them, focused specifically on the GCHQ (the British version of the NSA), were shared by The Guardian with The Times and ProPublica. Therefore we’re talking about a very large, but still very uncertain, number of documents. Since Greenwald has reported that Snowden “read and very carefully processed every document that he gave us,” curious citizens might wonder how that was possible.

That being said, Greenwald has offered answers to a few of the questions and we can discuss them.

Why are the documents being released so slowly? Greenwald provided the following answers in his blog posts.

Releasing the documents all at once would “violently breach … our agreement with our source.”
“Large media institutions, even the ones with the best journalistic intentions, have all sorts of constraints – financial, legal, cultural – that produce fear and timidity, and that has sometimes slowed down or diluted our ability to publish the way we wanted to.”
There exist “very real legal risks for everyone involved in this process, beginning with Snowden, who already faces 30 years in prison and is currently protected only by 9 more months of temporary asylum in Russia. Everyone involved in the publication of these materials has already undertaken substantial legal risk.”
“These documents are complex. Sometimes they take a good deal of reporting to fill in some of the gaps.”
The documents might contain the names of people who are surfing for pornography or are suspected of being terrorists, or they might contain “raw chats” or other specific internet activity, and these things might threaten the reputations or lives of those people. The documents might also help teach (less ethical?) states how to spy on their own citizens.
The first of these answers is the strongest. The public does not have access to the agreement and the implication is that future whistleblowers might be dissuaded from coming forward if they thought that they could not trust the people to whom they reveal information.

The second answer points more to the problem than the answer. Large media institutions are often vehicles for propaganda (remember the aluminum tubes) and that is why these kinds of questions arise in the first place.

The third answer is understandable but weak. Nobody should expect whistleblowing to be safe.

The last two answers are not believable considering what we know about answers Greenwald has given to other questions, and the distribution of the documents. For example, Greenwald knows enough about all the documents that he can definitely say that Paypal and its past and present executives are not implicated. And someone knew enough about the documents that they could be distributed to different major media corporations, presumably without carelessness, so these documents are not total unknowns. Can Greenwald tell us how the documents were categorized or sorted before distribution to the media outlets and how that was done to avoid the risks he emphasizes on his blog now?

Ultimately, the answer to why the documents have not been released boils down to that it is part of the agreement with Edward Snowden. Will Greenwald release his agreement with Snowden to verify that? Does the agreement apply to all the media outlets to which documents have been distributed? Who decided that these establishment mouthpiece media outlets were suddenly so honorable and would not report the information haphazardly or for the benefit of the powers that control them?

Conspiracy Theories

Greenwald’s December response indicated that he felt the questions about why the documents were not being released right away were good questions. He wrote, “I respect that critique” and even stated that he would ask the same questions. As an attorney, Greenwald might have wondered if withholding documents about ongoing crimes is a crime in itself.

Now, however, Greenwald labels those who question why the documents are being held back as “conspiracy theorists.” In Greenwald’s response, he rants about “people who cook up conspiracy theories” and how “deranged those theories are.” These comments reflect the position of Greenwald’s new media partner Jeremy Scahill with regard to questions about the official account for the 9/11 attacks. Scahill has publicly said that he believes questions about 9/11 are “insulting to the people who died on 9/11.” Scahill claims to be educated on such questions but apparently still doesn’t know that it was the 9/11 victims’ families who initiated such questioning and who continue to lead the search for answers.

The irony is that Greenwald was, just prior to becoming the voice of our New York Times-supported whistleblower hero, a major conspiracy theorist with regard to terrorism. In fact, Greenwald has espoused some of the most interesting conspiracy theories regarding U.S. government involvement in the manufacture of false terrorism.

In a series of articles at Salon, Greenwald went into great detail on the FBI’s ongoing efforts to manufacture terrorism. In one case, he wrote that the FBI “created a plot [and] it then persuaded/manipulated/entrapped [a hapless loner] to join, essentially turning him into a Terrorist; and then patted itself on the back once it arrested him for having thwarted a ‘Terrorist plot’ which, from start to finish, was entirely the FBI’s own concoction.”

If that’s not a conspiracy theory, I don’t know what is.

Greenwald went on to write that, “Time and again, the FBI concocts a Terrorist attack, infiltrates Muslim communities in order to find recruits, persuades them to perpetrate the attack, supplies them with the money, weapons and know-how they need to carry it out—only to heroically jump in at the last moment, arrest the would-be perpetrators whom the FBI converted, and save a grateful nation from the plot manufactured by the FBI.”

According to Greenwald this vast FBI plot is intended “to justify this Endless War on civil liberties (and Terror).” At the time, in 2010 and 2011, Greenwald was astounded by the lack of skepticism about the completely uncritical reporting on terrorist stories that were used to justify the War on Terror. Today he is astounded by the growing skepticism about the completely uncritical reporting on the Snowden story. Apparently the difference, and his newfound reliance on the Conspiracy Theorists™ slur, has to do with him being a central character in this story.

Overall, the government’s handling of questions about domestic surveillance has been very similar to its handling of questions about 9/11. It’s all about The Terrorists and things that would never be allowed in other circumstances, like lying to Congress and withholding documents, are perfectly OK. The Anglo-American establishment media control the flow of information and questions are not allowed. Those daring to question are met with ridicule. Heroes and demons are offered up to focus the story on personalities instead of facts. What’s different here?
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:11 pm

Sad to see. Kevin Ryan certainly "strikes a more measured tone than Sibel Edmonds and keeps his arguments more succinct," but given her utter derailing in this matter, that's not so hard. Is there "a kernel of something unsettling here"? That's very easy to say, and possibly true in all cases.

Kevin Ryan wrote:Greenwald Responds to Critics, Rejects Conspiracism


As well he should. I reject conspiracism! For example, I do research on power elites, secret institutions, the deep state, the influence of capital on politics, hidden money flows, organized crime, etc. Anyone who wants to call that "conspiracism" a priori is getting a knuckle sandwich. 9/11 skepticism and "conspiracism" are worlds apart. Unfortunately, conspiracism and the ready acceptance of the "conspiracy" label by "truthers," in part as a convenient brand for merchandising Alex Jones, et al., killed the real hope of 9/11 skepticism that the family members had first raised.

So already in the headline we have a preview of a certain logical fallacy here. To illustrate the fallacy I mean: I accept the principle of Love Thy Neighbor. If someone therefore writes, "Riddler Accepts Christianity," there endeth my love for them. They also get the knuckle sandwich.*

What we know about Edward Snowden is that he was a Special Forces recruit in the U.S. Army, an NSA employee, an NSA contractor for at least two different companies, and a CIA employee under cover. All of this occurred in a span of only a few years and he was able to command six-figure salaries despite having no education beyond a high school equivalency certification. Of the many positions he held in a period of approximately six years, the most long-lived appears to have been his work with the CIA where this 20-something spy was, in his own words, a “senior advisor.”


No. This does not remotely exhaust the subject of "what we know about Edward Snowden," any more than "what we know about Sibel Edmonds" would be that she's married to some military officer and, after 9/11, volunteered to work for the FBI--the well-known U.S. federal political police and apparatus of repression.

The main thing we know about Edward Snowden is what he did starting in 2013, the impact it has had, and what he's said about it since. It would be interesting to have a discussion on that, but neither Ryan nor Edmonds are interested. They want to beat around Snowden's, and especially Greenwald's, bushes.

If Snowden didn't claim some resume of this ilk, he'd be disqualified as a guy who doesn't even know what he's talking about, which happens anyway. He's not speaking to self-declared "conspiracists" who actually want to defend this demented label. He's speaking to the world.

However, the questions about the evolving Snowden story have grown rapidly and continue to present challenges to citizens who are alert to the prevalence of corporate media propaganda. How many stolen documents are there and who has access to them?


Stolen?

On Omidyar, I've been preparing something for later. Hope soon.

Author Naomi Wolf asked some straightforward questions about Snowden’s slick introduction in comparison to other whistleblower stories. Her questions elicited derision from pundits, some even suggesting that if Wolf didn’t buy into Snowden then she must be an NSA operative.


That was another extremely embarrassing piece, we have it here somewhere. As I remember it, it was a textbook illustration of how to insinuate trash about someone by a vague argument that would be equally applicable to Naomi Wolf herself. Basically, Snowden was getting more attention than Naomi Wolf, who had already said some of the same things as Snowden was now demonstrating in actual documents. Therefore, he's an agent of Them. Spidey-sense, etcetera.

Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds’ questions were met with ad hominem attacks from Greenwald.


Are you fucking kidding? She started her little campaign (see OP!) with endless pages imagining Greenwald's awesome high-spending gay Brazilian decadence, making up bullshit about his "million dollar" advances, misrepresenting his resume, calling him an "ambulance chaser" and fake "Marxist-Leninist" (now there's a term that tips off what she's about), and adding yet more gobs of thinly-disguised homo-hating invective. And this with a guy known for responding in kind. I'd say "too stupid and/or crazy to know" is at least vague enough that it doesn't expose some ugly backward prejudices, like Edmonds does in speaking of Greenwald.

Writing that Edmonds was “too stupid and/or crazy to know,“ Greenwald summarily excused the founder of the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition from further dialogue on the issue.


As Hitler said on September 1, 1939: "As of 5 am, we are firing back!"

My recent article resulted in mild hysteria from a few who believe that no aspect of the Snowden story should ever be questioned


I believe all aspects of the Snowden story should be questioned, using logic and sound sense.

regardless of how that story evolves in the mainstream media.


Granting that the Snowden story and how it evolves in the MM may be two different things?

Greenwald’s answers appeared at his blog in two installments, one in December and another in January. In those posts he goes on at length about the fact that reporters work for money. Although Edmonds has made the point that whistleblowing should not be a profit-making venture for anyone, in general no one denies that reporters work for money. And if Greenwald gets fabulously rich from all of it, that doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that Greenwald still hasn’t answered some of the more important questions.


It all doesn't matter, but it takes up space though. Are we finally done with what doesn't matter and getting to what does?

For example, has he made any kind of deal with government or corporate representatives with regard to this story or the release of material from Snowden? What are his views on the coincidence that several of Pierre Omidyar’s former Paypal colleagues are strong supporters of NSA spying and are the people developing the technologies for that spying?


Good questions. As for Omidyar, he made his wad in the usual dirty way, and does not run Paypal. I like where he chooses to put the loot, a lot better than where Gates, or Koch, or Peterson, or Bloomberg put theirs.

Now, however, Greenwald labels those who question why the documents are being held back as “conspiracy theorists.” In Greenwald’s response, he rants about “people who cook up conspiracy theories” and how “deranged those theories are.”


Hate that. He shouldn't do that!

The only thing I hate about as much is when the accused accept this meaningless attack label and wish to defend it as a comprehensive world-view.

These comments reflect the position of Greenwald’s new media partner Jeremy Scahill with regard to questions about the official account for the 9/11 attacks. Scahill has publicly said that he believes questions about 9/11 are “insulting to the people who died on 9/11.” Scahill claims to be educated on such questions but apparently still doesn’t know that it was the 9/11 victims’ families who initiated such questioning and who continue to lead the search for answers.


Woah, woah! What happened? I thought this was about Greenwald. Snowden. Now we're at Scahill's view of 9/11 questioning, and so, by extension, Scahill's view of Ryan.

So hang on, the progression is, Greenwald said "conspiracy theory" to the utter trash Edmonds was talking. (Which would be utter trash regardless due to the absence of logic or reflection, even if her POOMA accusations turned out to be true by coincidence. Also, Greenwald's literally correct, not to excuse it.) Wait, never mind that. Look at this instead: Greenwald is hiring Scahill! Scahill has said many mean things about "conspiracy theory." Therefore, let's talk about Scahill's views on 9/11, as if (1) this is directly relevant to anything being discussed here. And furthermore, (2) let's insinuate these views are also Greenwald's views, although he's never stated an opinion on 9/11 (interestingly) and (getting back to 1) as if this is directly relevant. Following?

The irony is that Greenwald was, just prior to becoming the voice of our New York Times-supported whistleblower hero, a major conspiracy theorist with regard to terrorism.


Fuck you. For this, and the supposed justification that follows.

In fact, Greenwald has espoused some of the most interesting conspiracy theories regarding U.S. government involvement in the manufacture of false terrorism.


No, he hasn't. He's read the FBI's own filings.

In a series of articles at Salon, Greenwald went into great detail on the FBI’s ongoing efforts to manufacture terrorism. In one case, he wrote that the FBI “created a plot [and] it then persuaded/manipulated/entrapped [a hapless loner] to join, essentially turning him into a Terrorist; and then patted itself on the back once it arrested him for having thwarted a ‘Terrorist plot’ which, from start to finish, was entirely the FBI’s own concoction.”


Greenwald read this "great detail" in the FBI's indictments. No one who looks at the typical FBI counterterror case brought to court in the last dozen years needs to theorize that the FBI constructing these. The FBI has been explaining exactly how they construct these. They stop just short of saying in so many words that they are constructing these. Almost all of these plots involve their informants walking in to Muslim communities, staying on the periphery, hanging out for ages, pretending to be jihadis and persistently looking for and recruiting the most susceptible men, sometimes the dumbest men they can find, then haranguing said men ad infinitum until they give in and agree to be part of some moron plot that the informant himself cooks up, at which point the informant delivers fake arms, and a minute later, the patsies are the new face of evil on the tabloid front pages, terra terra terra, raise the security budgets.

If that’s not a conspiracy theory, I don’t know what is.


Illustrating that, much as I've respected your work in the past, Kevin Ryan, you are, in this case, full of shit.

Greenwald went on to write that, “Time and again, the FBI concocts a Terrorist attack, infiltrates Muslim communities in order to find recruits, persuades them to perpetrate the attack, supplies them with the money, weapons and know-how they need to carry it out—only to heroically jump in at the last moment, arrest the would-be perpetrators whom the FBI converted, and save a grateful nation from the plot manufactured by the FBI.”


And, again, at the end of this process, the FBI puts all of the details of how they did this into something called an indictment, which Kevin Ryan could read and deconstruct as easily as Glenn Greenwald and many others have done.

According to Greenwald this vast FBI plot is intended “to justify this Endless War on civil liberties (and Terror).”


This is the first bit Ryan cites from Greenwald that could be remotely called "theory." It's an awfully compelling assumption about what must be the FBI's motivation to commit such frame-ups and pumped-up sting operations, but yes, it's speculatin'.

At the time, in 2010 and 2011, Greenwald was astounded by the lack of skepticism about the completely uncritical reporting on terrorist stories that were used to justify the War on Terror. Today he is astounded by the growing skepticism about the completely uncritical reporting on the Snowden story.


Growing? Really? Uncritical? Really? We in the same universe, here? We talking the same Snowden who's been styled into the great traitor of our time? Do you actually read this MM that you're so right to be disgusted by, Kevin Ryan?

Apparently the difference, and his newfound reliance on the Conspiracy Theorists™ slur, has to do with him being a central character in this story.


Because alongside the slur, there is a real-existing conspiracy industry that makes up this kind of bullshit, and seems to love nothing more than attacking those who get more attention working the same subjects. Edmonds was practically screaming it in the OP, e.g., all the stuff about how Greenwald got a book contract from the same publisher that refused her manuscript.

Overall, the government’s handling of questions about domestic surveillance has been very similar to its handling of questions about 9/11.


Yay, let's switch to this, as though it says something about Snowden and Greenwald. Why not?

The government's handling of these questions has been to say that they're protecting against terrorists, and everyone should shut up or something will blow up, and Snowden and by extension Greenwald are enemies of the state. It requires no theory to observe that Kevin Ryan, unfortunately, and Sibel Edmonds are doing work that is very useful to General Alexander and his ilk, though (non-conspiratorially) I believe this is not because they're working for them! But they are fulfilling a function for them, anyway, by adding to the chorus of the irrational slinging irrelevant bullshit at Snowden and Greenwald. This is very obvious. Now what function are Snowden and Greenwald fulfilling by releasing the documents in the slow, deliberate, targeted and highly effective strategy they've followed so far? It would seem to be the opposite. Edmonds and Ryan have chosen to line up with General Alexander and co.

Those daring to question are met with ridicule.


As was Snowden, with mountains of it from the Mighty Wurlitzer, the moment his story broke. His girlfriend, boxes in his garage, how much money he really made, his pale skin - all of it fair game, to this moment.

Heroes and demons are offered up to focus the story on personalities instead of facts. What’s different here?


One thing that is different here, Kevin Ryan, is that now it's you doing it - and you're doing it to Snowden and Greenwald.

.

* - This works equally well as the converse, which is what Ryan is doing here. E.g., Riddler does not believe in Love Thy Neighbor, therefore Riddler has made a general statement against "Christianity."

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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:51 am

The main thing we know about Edward Snowden is what he did starting in 2013, the impact it has had, and what he's said about it since. It would be interesting to have a discussion on that, but neither Ryan nor Edmonds are interested. They want to beat around Snowden's, and especially Greenwald's, bushes.


Yeah, let's discuss that impact: Edward Snowden = proper whistleblowering through the right professional channels. Private Manning = bad whistleblower indiscriminately dumping and endangering our heroic troops, a meme Greenwald jumped on right away and kept going with throughout the latter's trial. Otherwise, impact = nil.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:10 am

Spiro C. Thiery » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:51 am wrote:
The main thing we know about Edward Snowden is what he did starting in 2013, the impact it has had, and what he's said about it since. It would be interesting to have a discussion on that, but neither Ryan nor Edmonds are interested. They want to beat around Snowden's, and especially Greenwald's, bushes.


Yeah, let's discuss that impact: Edward Snowden = proper whistleblowering through the right professional channels. Private Manning = bad whistleblower indiscriminately dumping and endangering our heroic troops, a meme Greenwald jumped on right away and kept going with throughout the latter's trial. Otherwise, impact = nil.


Wow, three for three on the self-evidently untrue. Snowden is the most wanted man on the U.S. list, this is proper and through "right professional channels"? Manning did it through Wikileaks which also used the mass corporate media. The same people on RI currently making up bullshit about Snowden and Greenwald were saying the same crap about Assange and Wikileaks. Greenwald defended Manning throughout. You have no backing for any of these statements.

Here you go: the NSA and Co. said everyone jump on Snowden and Greenwald, and we see Edmonds and now Ryan acting as though they're responding to the call. If I wanted to make shit up about people working for the bad guys, it would be very easy to do for the latter two. It's a disgusting display.

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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:51 am

JackRiddler » Today, 10:10 wrote:
Spiro C. Thiery » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:51 am wrote:
The main thing we know about Edward Snowden is what he did starting in 2013, the impact it has had, and what he's said about it since. It would be interesting to have a discussion on that, but neither Ryan nor Edmonds are interested. They want to beat around Snowden's, and especially Greenwald's, bushes.

Yeah, let's discuss that impact: Edward Snowden = proper whistleblowering through the right professional channels. Private Manning = bad whistleblower indiscriminately dumping and endangering our heroic troops, a meme Greenwald jumped on right away and kept going with throughout the latter's trial. Otherwise, impact = nil.

Wow, three for three on the self-evidently untrue. Snowden is the most wanted man on the U.S. list, this is proper and through "right professional channels"? Manning did it through Wikileaks which also used the mass corporate media. The same people on RI currently making up bullshit about Snowden and Greenwald were saying the same crap about Assange and Wikileaks. Greenwald defended Manning throughout. You have no backing for any of these statements.

Here you go: the NSA and Co. said everyone jump on Snowden and Greenwald, and we see Edmonds and now Ryan acting as though they're responding to the call. If I wanted to make shit up about people working for the bad guys, it would be very easy to do for the latter two. It's a disgusting display.


Firstly, when responding to a person directly, one should avoid attributing others' arguments to that person. I made a pretty simple claim to which this bit of hubris might have sufficed:
JackRiddler » Today, 10:10 wrote:You have no backing for any of these statements.


Here is Greenwald's introduction to the theme. He would have to be pretty naive to be oblivious to Snowden's implications as Manning's trial was getting underway. You might argue that they were just covering their behinds, but in doing so they accept the entire national security narrative and throw Manning under the public relations bus:
Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillance revelations
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/j ... rveillance
Snowden said that he admires both Ellsberg and Manning, but argues that there is one important distinction between himself and the army private, whose trial coincidentally began the week Snowden's leaks began to make news.

"I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is."

He purposely chose, he said, to give the documents to journalists whose judgment he trusted about what should be public and what should remain concealed.


Here's Greenwald, following up on Morning Joe, indeed offers a brief defense of Manning before attributing any of his perceived shortcomings to the implications of Snowden, but Greenwald more than implies that Manning could have caused harm gratuitously, which is precisely one of the things he was charged with. That's hardly a stellar support of Manning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFeNcOjENYE
Thomas Roberts: What makes Bradley Manning any different from Edward Snowden . . . because Manning is widely considered to be a traitor and not a whistleblower?

Greenwald: Well I consider him a whistleblower and a hero and lots of other people do around the world as well…But if you ask [Snowden] what the difference is, he will say that he spent months meticulously studying every document. When he handed us those documents they were all in very detailed files by topic. He had read over every single one and used his expertise to make judgments about what he thought should be public–and then didn’t just upload them to the internet–he gave them to journalists who, he knew, and wanted to go through them each one by one and make journalistic judgments about what should be public and what wasn’t, so that harm wouldn’t come gratuitously, but that the public would be informed, and that he was very careful and meticulous about doing that.


You said it would be interesting to have a discussion about the impact. I suppose what the National Security narrative dictates is fine as a part of that, but it is hardly the most trustworthy version of things. So if...
JackRiddler » Today, 10:10 wrote:Snowden is the most wanted man on the U.S. list
...is supposed be significant impact it's not much of a discussion, especially considering the nature of this forum.

The impact has to include the reaction of the public at large, not just the official reaction emanating from the halls of state. When I talk about the meme, I am talking about how Snowden/Greenwald have framed "the discussion" and how various factions of the press and punditry, would-be resisters of said state, and everyday rubes for and against this faction and that react to "the discussion".

JackRiddler » Today, 10:10 wrote: Greenwald defended Manning throughout
Now I will say it: You have no backing for that statement, because "throughout" is what we are talking about. So some Salon article from the year before last deploring the conditions of his confinement will not do. By the time his trial got underway, during his sentencing, and right up until now, when a living, breathing human being sits in the brig for what Greenwald repeatedly describes as "reckless" and "indiscriminate", he does nothing but condemn him further in the mind of those who buy into his narrative.

To wit: the impact
Wow. Just Wow
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/wow ... ?ref=fpblg
He is - also - notably quick to distinguish what he's done from Bradley Manning, making clear that he did not leak information that would harm individuals or do what he deems real harm to the United States as opposed to revealing the existence and full scope of the NSA's and US Intelligence Community's surveillance apparatus. As some of you know, I've never been very sympathetic to Manning, thinking him mainly a naif who revealed US government secrets in such a wildly indiscriminate manner as to lose almost any conceivable justification for his acts. This appears to be a different case. Snowden seems to be who Manning's supporters always wanted to pretend he was but wasn't.


The Snowden Prism
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-snowden-prism
But it comes down to this essential thing: is the aim and/or effect of the leak to correct an abuse or simply to blow the whole thing up? In Manning's case, it's always seemed pretty clear to me that the latter was the case.... snip...The Snowden case is less clear to me. At least to date, the revelations seem more surgical. And the public definitely has an interest in knowing just how we're using surveillance technology and how we're balancing risks versus privacy.


Is Edward Snowden the Anti–Bradley Manning?
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1134 ... ce-manning
For many, the first instinct yesterday upon reading about Edward Snowden, the Guardian and Washington Post’s source on the National Security Agency stories, was to compare him to Bradley Manning, the U.S. Army private currently being court-martialed for disclosing hundreds of thousands of logs, videos, and diplomatic cables, many of them classified, to WikiLeaks. And Talking Points Memo editor-in-chief Joshua Micah Marshall seemed to articulate the bien-pensant liberal’s gut feeling regarding the comparison—certainly he articulated my gut feeling—when he wrote, “Snowden seems to be who Manning’s supporters always wanted to pretend he was but wasn’t.”

To anyone who knows the first thing about Manning and who read Glenn Greenwald’s profile of Snowden yesterday (and watched the accompanying video interview), the differences between the two young men are as obvious as the resonances. Manning had been, according to all accounts, deeply unhappy (among other reasons, he was a gay man in the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell military) and shy, and had suffered significant setbacks in his career; Snowden appears eloquent and poised, and had been living in Hawaii with his girlfriend making $200,000 a year while doing, according to him, not all that much work as an NSA contractor at Booz Allen Hamilton. Manning leaked to a guerilla outfit run by a pretty obvious megalomaniac, Julian Assange; Snowden leaked to a Constitutional lawyer turned award-winning journalist at The Guardian, which, for all its right-wing critics, is an esteemed, nearly 200-year-old newspaper, as well as to The Washington Post's Barton Gellman, who has won two Pulitzer Prizes.



Surveillance: Snowden Doesn’t Rise to Traitor
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opini ... .html?_r=0
Clearly, Mr. Snowden did not join a terror cell, or express any hostility toward the United States, when he turned over documents to The Guardian and The Washington Post. (He was also not nearly as reckless as Bradley Manning, the soldier on trial on charges with giving classified materials to WikiLeaks, who seemed not to know or care what secret documents he was exposing.) Mr. Snowden’s goal was to expose and thus stop the intelligence community from what he considered unwarranted intrusions into the lives of ordinary Americans. “My sole motive,” he told The Guardian, “is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them.”


Of course there's the quick takes (and conclusions)
https://twitter.com/radleybalko/statuses/343884014047866881
Christopher Hayes ‏@chrislhayes 9 Jun Sort of interesting the way Snowden distinguishes himself from Manning and implicitly critiques Manning's actions.
Radley Balko (@radleybalko) @chrislhayes I think he's right. Manning was reckless. These leaks seem to be specific to activities Snowden believed to be abusive.


https://twitter.com/AriMelber/statuses/343933408478642176
Ari Melber (@AriMelber) Snowden tells WP he wanted to work w publishers to screen leaks for security harm, in contrast to Manning, tho PRISM more secret than 10. Juni 2013


https://twitter.com/wikileaks/statuses/383803459109019649
Multivac User (@MultivacUser) @wikileaks @ggreenwald I know that what you do isn&#39;t doc dumping, but it seems to be the proxy term everyone is using to refer to the <a href="https://twitter.com/wikileaks"></a> model.


Greenwald is a lawyer and journalist. He knows how to use language. If he had wanted to defend the way he has gone about releasing the materials, he could have done so without the "mass, indiscriminate" use of words to imply that the person on trial had helped the security state's cause, as he does here:
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/statuses/370205527092903937
Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) Mass, indiscriminate document dumping would have helped nobody except the NSA 21. August 2013


As to the rest of the impact, I would say it depends, of course. Several messages have been delivered, and depending on who you are, perception alters the message.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:38 pm

Spiro, very interesting.

After saying how important it is not to attribute others' arguments to someone else, you cite some commentators of the punditariat, not Greenwald, explicitly making the case for responsible Snowden vs. irresponsible Manning. (Divide and conquer?) In your two cites at the start, the ones actually from Greenwald, however, in both cases he clearly frames his statements as reports on what Snowden said, which is not given as his, Greenwald's, opinion. To me these are just as clearly cases of Snowden covering himself against the flood of attacks that have called him irresponsible at best and more often a traitor and active danger, with his eye on the big American public (such as it is) and not on how nuances may be understood by over-sophisticated observers like us. These truly indiscriminate attacks on Snowden have been far larger in volume than the (conditional) defenses from the mainstream sources you cite. I ask mainly for the full context, in which the weight of the U.S. State and Media, if there's a difference, is arrayed against this guy and people like Hayden and that Senator publicly make jokes about having special forces murder him in his sleep - same deal Assange got back in 2010. And don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Snowden explicitly defend Manning's actions, but his opinion on the latter may not rise to a very important status. What matters is what Snowden did (as with Manning), and whether the backbiting critique now coming from the left and the RI-type crowd, that he is compromised or fake, has validity.

The tweet at the end of your post, from Greenwald, seems to be responding to criticism that Snowden was indiscriminate and saying, no, he wasn't. It takes an extra step to interpret that as meaning that Greenwald thinks Manning was indiscriminate, which I don't see. For years I saw Greenwald in Salon and then the Guardian always defending Manning and Wikileaks, constantly pointing out that Manning was in prison while the Apache helicopter murderers and the architects of the Iraq crime were seemingly immune, calling himself a supporter of Wikileaks, and counteracting the "indiscriminate" labeling (such as pointing out it was Nick Davies and not Assange who actually released the password for 90+ percent of the State Department documents in the insurance file).

BKS gave me a call today to debate this stuff! I think the dynamics of Greenwald's strategy, engaging a high-level PR plan for maximizing media impact of the periodic releases over many months time, can get one into deep, swirling waters, and at some point Greenwald's inevitably making calls that can be questioned or are altogether wrong. That doesn't mean he's actually one of Them, not yet! I think it's also possible he's in a process of being compromised by getting $250 million from an IT billionaire, or, as an individual targeted by some very powerful institutions, that he may be subject to other pressures we can't see. Considering such possibilities -- always strongly potential, we're dealing with the most powerful State responding to a political attack on its surveillance and control apparatus -- is necessary, and needs to be done carefully. Going off half-cocked a la Edmonds and now sadly Ryan too (both in the Tarpley mode of course) with rants full of illogic on how Greenwald's an agent because my Spidey Sense said so and I do not yet see the NSA and Co. being toppled by what he's done so far, is extremely destructive. And it happens to feed right into the aims and purposes of the State's attack on Snowden and Greenwald.

The main factors here are that State, the broad public, and the media. In the attempt to have impact, Greenwald's involved himself up to the neck in a dangerous game with always dubious rules. Maybe he shouldn't have engaged? Not everything Greenwald says is going to be pitched to the satisfaction of critics like Ryan, or of Ames, whose take on this I finally have to read at BKS's request. So that's what I've got to say so far. Thanks.

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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:56 am

JackRiddler » Today, 01:38 wrote: In your two cites at the start, the ones actually from Greenwald, however, in both cases he clearly frames his statements as reports on what Snowden said, which is not given as his, Greenwald's, opinion. To me these are just as clearly cases of Snowden covering himself against the flood of attacks that have called him irresponsible at best and more often a traitor and active danger, with his eye on the big American public (such as it is) and not on how nuances may be understood by over-sophisticated observers like us.


I do mention these two things in my comment. Either one of them, Snowden, or Greenwald in his interpretation of Snowden, could have stricken the Manning comparisons and just made it clear how meticulously discriminating he/they were regarding the documents. But both of them continued to include Manning in their commentary, specifically as a comparison as to how they were not doing things. Greenwald's a lawyer and a journalist and had to know better.

There's a whole shade of other interpretation of events, between our over-sophistication and the rubes who call for all of the traitor's heads. I included the reactions to the initial Snowden/Manning comparison to demonstrate where some of that lies. You might recall that up until the Snowden story, Manning was getting almost no coverage in the mainstream press. It's a shame that once his trial started, it got smeared with more implications of wrongdoing from a camp that was supposed to have had his back.

We cannot say for sure where Snowden is. We can say with relative certainty where Manning sits. Snowden is a man of the year candidate. Manning is a prisoner, perhaps not in your or my consciousness, perhaps not in Greenwald's, but he doesn't talk about Manning much these days. I guess that's my issue.

For Greenwald to then go on to become part of the founding of Omidyar Group--considering the latter's position vis a vis PayPal--should at least raise concerns. These are concerns he responds to with dismissive arrogance and condescension. You'd think he would want more allies than to treat people with legit questions the same as he does national security journalists for Fox news. For all of his taking to task of the NSA, he seems to give a pass to all the private companies that have benefited from their largess or "buckled" to their desires. Silicon Valley is the new hero, along with Greenwald/Omidyar/Poitras/Snowden, et al.

In the hacker community--the place from whence future spies come--the impact the NSA story was demonstrated by the warm reception Greenwald's videolink received in Hamburg at the end of last year.

We might say that whether or not this is a good thing remains to be seen. Frankly, I think I've seen enough. Let me just say that it remains to be proven. The onus is on them. So far, not so good.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby elfismiles » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:21 pm



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28qPR4t-4c

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Alternative to what and independent of whom? These are the questions that are seldom asked of the pseudo-alternative, foundation-funded and establishment-dependent "alternative" media. Today on the BFP Roundtable, Sibel Edmonds, Peter B. Collins, Guillermo Jimenez and James Corbett discuss the meltdown of the dinosaur media paradigm and how the establishment is using the pseudo-alternatives to continue to forward their agenda. We also discuss ways of counteracting this and positing real solutions to the problems we are facing.

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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby Lord Balto » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:51 pm

Hammer of Los » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:05 am wrote:...

Jack and Searcher nailed the points there.

It's a shame even fellow whistle blowers and truth tellers can't get along.

...


Like Webster Tarpley, the Historian and former follower of Lyndon LaRouche, Edmonds seems to think that everything is a "limited hangout," as Tarpley calls it, because he hasn't disclosed everything he doesn't know including who really killed Julius Caesar. I for one am glad that at least some of the nefarious activities of the U.S. government and their allies has seen the light of day. And yes, leaking the details one crime at a time, week after week, is a stroke of genius, not a sign of deceit. This is why Greenwald is in the global press and Tarpley isn't.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby slimmouse » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:12 pm

With respect to everyone, what we know is what we know.

We probably also know how they intend to use it.

So, why all the he said/ she said?

Actions or Reactions.

Im sure theres a game show in there somewhere.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:50 pm

Lord Balto » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:51 pm wrote:
Hammer of Los » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:05 am wrote:...

Jack and Searcher nailed the points there.

It's a shame even fellow whistle blowers and truth tellers can't get along.

...


Like Webster Tarpley, the Historian and former follower of Lyndon LaRouche, Edmonds seems to think that everything is a "limited hangout," as Tarpley calls it, because he hasn't disclosed everything he doesn't know including who really killed Julius Caesar. I for one am glad that at least some of the nefarious activities of the U.S. government and their allies has seen the light of day. And yes, leaking the details one crime at a time, week after week, is a stroke of genius, not a sign of deceit. This is why Greenwald is in the global press and Tarpley isn't.


Although Tarpley gets almost as much time on RT. ;-)
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:58 pm

By the way, rereading some of the above, this really stuck out for me with Ryan's piece:

How many stolen documents are there and who has access to them?


Guess who else has been asking that question every day since June?

Image

Just sayin'. Not meaning to imply that Ryan's wittingly with the black hats. In that case, I'm certain he'd be honest about it:

Image
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby Nordic » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:39 pm

Since Jack Diggler has decided to derail this thread and start his own, thereby (he hopes) sending this one down the memory hole, (and this from a guy who is a total pain in the ass to EVERYONE ELSE about thread consolidation but he doesn't live by his own rules), I am linking to the thread that he started.

Maybe one of the mods here, since there are more mods than participants these days, can consolidate these threads.

Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37630&start=0
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:24 pm

Nordic » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:39 pm wrote:Since Jack Diggler has decided to derail this thread and start his own, thereby (he hopes) sending this one down the memory hole, (and this from a guy who is a total pain in the ass to EVERYONE ELSE about thread consolidation but he doesn't live by his own rules), I am linking to the thread that he started.

Maybe one of the mods here, since there are more mods than participants these days, can consolidate these threads.

Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37630&start=0


Actually, I don't care where this thread ends up. Please kick it every day. I just prefer to kick something less often if the title is such a self-evident falsehood. Sibel Edmonds is destroying her own life's work and assisting the NSA's smear campaign against Greenwald and Snowden with a repulsive display of illogic laced with thinly disguised gay-hating. I deconstructed her nonsense at length above, and also Ryan's later piece. I've done my part for this thread, now I want to do less.

I'd even agree to combining the threads - but only if it goes under the title I chose.

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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:13 am

JackRiddler » Today, 02:24 wrote:
Nordic » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:39 pm wrote:Since Jack Diggler has decided to derail this thread and start his own, thereby (he hopes) sending this one down the memory hole, (and this from a guy who is a total pain in the ass to EVERYONE ELSE about thread consolidation but he doesn't live by his own rules), I am linking to the thread that he started.


Actually, I don't care where this thread ends up. Please kick it every day. I just prefer to kick something less often if the title is such a self-evident falsehood. Sibel Edmonds is destroying her own life's work and assisting the NSA's smear campaign against Greenwald and Snowden with a repulsive display of illogic laced with thinly disguised gay-hating. I deconstructed her nonsense at length above, and also Ryan's later piece. I've done my part for this thread, now I want to do less.

I'd even agree to combining the threads - but only if it goes under the title I chose.


I am not convinced that what you did in this thread isn't rather display a certain obsequiousness towards the hero myth as it relates to the next untouchable in the mighty drama of our day. This assertion that Greenwald/Snowden are being victimized by an NSA smear campaign is as blind as the most extreme unfounded accusations being lobbed their way. Likewise is your fascination with what you describe as thinly disguised gay-hating a thinly disguised excuse to ignore serious questions, a tendency that someone of rigorous intuition would do well to avoid. I assume the former is is not your intention.

What's the title of that other thread?
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