Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 am

Posting the Rice video is insulting and childish. Okay, she was part of a monstrous cabal who launched a war of aggression. So when she presents herself in an interview, what do you think she's going to do? Confess? Call herself a monster? No, she's going to deflect, find a way to celebrate herself. She might say she's open-minded, democratic, honest, etc. No one here thinks these concepts come into discredit just because a close-minded undemocratic liar appropriates or distorts them or presents them out of context.

All that video shows is that Rice is smart enough to understand feminism is a positive mantle for her to claim. A bad person she is, but her understanding that feminism is a good thing makes her smarter than certain posters on this board, who display Pavlovian reactions at the mere mention of the word. Pointing out that some bad person calls herself a feminist does not constitute an argument. In this case, of course, her bad acts have nothing to do with her supposed feminism.

Maybe the trolling of this thread is done? I'd like to restart.
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:16 am

So let's restart!

I am a feminist.

I am an environmentalist.

These are easily defined concepts.

These are unambiguously good things to be.


Some people react poorly to these two labels. This is because a culture and a propaganda system have fucked us all in the head from an early age.

To me a feminist believes in equal rights and privileges for women and men; all individuals' freedom from proscribed gender roles; acknowledgment of difference and fair treatment for all: From each according to her ability, to each according to her need. The "second wave" feminism of the 1970s would serve any nation far better as a hegemonic ideology than our present nightmare of religions and secular creeds.

A male can be a feminist. A few female feminists would deny me the label, but I have no problem with them. They are on their own path and they do little harm to anyone else (contrary to how the David Mamets and Stephen Morgans might see it).

An environmentalist understands that the human species, its populations, its cultures, economies, polities and civilizations are subordinate parts and functions of a biosphere that carries these, and is complexly interdependent with these. The first principle of economics must become that it is inescapably a subset of ecology -- as well as a product of historical development, and not of abstract first principles like the "market." Until then, it is only an ideology of the powerful and a pseudo-science.

An environmentalist understands the species as a whole -- thanks mostly but not entirely to a minority of over-consumers, generally the ones whom the pseudo-economics serves actually -- is trashing the carrying capacity for the species. And making the place much uglier in the process. And causing one of the great extinction events in the earth's history, so far more rapid than any other in the fossil record. And causing great suffering to all the other life as well as our own. This necessitates more change than we are willing to imagine. Or the die-off will come to us. Perhaps this is already inevitable. I don't think so, but to think so does not necessarily make you in favor of it.

Here is an environmentalist:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpkRvc-sOKk

Oh look! She's got a whole bunch more videos in the same style.

http://www.youtube.com/user/storyofstuf ... ture=watch

Here's her original "Story" video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GorqroigqM

I bet she's also feminist! Untucked shirt! No bullshit! Straight talk from her brain to your heart. Love her!

Everyone loves her, studies show!
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby coffin_dodger » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:26 am

I wish women were in charge, full stop. Not women like that woman who wanted to be a man - Margaret Thatcher - but women like my wife, my daughter, my grandmother, my mum, my aunties and my wife's girlfriends. They're lovely proper women - caring, nurturing, loving, friendly, open and honest human beings. I like to think that women - such as the women in my life - have a secret way of communicating between one another, allowing them to take comfort from one another, silently laughing (as a coping method) at the stupidity of mankind.

Come on ladies - it's your turn to try running things and I, for one, can't wait for the day to arrive.
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:10 am

Kicking this fun thread from the last time a board meltdown / shutdown / apocalypse was surely inevitable.

Also, want to edit/add to this:

To me a feminist believes in

- equal rights, privileges and duties for women and men;

- all individuals' freedom from proscribed gender roles and gender-specific characteristics and demands; avoidance of training children in such roles (insofar as possible and within reason given there is always going to be a cultural legacy) ; and, in general, freedom for children to develop as independently as possible;

- an acknowledgement that the reproductive sphere is as essential and worthy of respect as the productive sphere, that child care and family work and cleaning are as necessary or perhaps more necessary than many or most of the functions that earn wages, and perhaps should, in fact, earn wages (or else everyone should get a basic wage) ;

- acknowledgment of difference and fair treatment for all: From each according to her ability, to each according to her need.

You may see it differently - by a lot or a little.

The "second wave" feminism of the 1970s would serve any nation far better as a hegemonic ideology than our present nightmare of religions and secular-economistic-biologistic creeds.

.
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby FourthBase » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:54 pm

Carol Newquist » 03 Oct 2013 11:16 wrote:Jack, your response to me was a long-winded diatribe rationalizing Identity Politics. I don't subscribe to that philosophy because it produces precisely the outcome in the link I provided to Feminist.com. Let's take Feminism, for example. Amongst other characteristics used to describe this label, foremost amongst them is the use of the term empowerment. Power is at the core of that term. Power, imo. has a masculine stigma attached to it. Not so nice things come to mind when I think of power, and so, to me, empowerment means "hey ladies, yeah, sure, you can have some power too. Come on over here, we'll show you how it's done. That's right....put your index finger on the trigger like that and pull....but you don't have to pull hard....just a squeeze really. Feel that power? It's awesome, isn't it? Welcome to the club, Champ" I said this at another place where it wasn't so welcome....where I was called a Feminist on more occasions than I can count.

At a family reunion last year, my sister-in-law spoke about her hero, Billy Jean King. This S-I-L had been ruled over by a tyrant, her husand and my brother, for quite some time before she basically said “fuck-off” and pursued her own interests. She attended college and received a degree in education and is now a teacher. She and my brother have three grown children. The conversation continued along the lines of women and their current and historical roles in society and women’s rights in general. My brother did not care to discuss any of this so remained in the other room and scowled. My S-I-L, obviously, supports equal rights but only in the sense that females get to do everything males do, hence her worship of Billy Jean King. I told her that this outcome was disappointing for me. She became immediately defensive because she assumed my statement was motivated by conservatism which most assuredly it was not. I clarified that my wish was that women could chart their own course and create their world, not assume predefined roles in the current world crafted and ruled by men. She’s not the brightest bulb, so she lashed out at me and said “what other world are you talking about? We’re on planet Earth. It’s not like we can go to Mars.” Her response made me realize just how seemingly impossible a truly new world is. Look how far you’d have to go. You’d have to wipe the slate clean and start fresh with a new generation for there to be any chance. A collapse could do that, but the collateral damage will be immense.



Deep. True.

What I think a lot of people don't particularly like about, not necessarily feminism and environmentalism, but the most visible/vocal feminists and environmentalists, is that they tend to subscribe to and interpret everything through the lens of a kneejerk, cultish brand of anti-capitalism, and they tend to suffer from (and demand conformity to) the epistemic closure of identity politics, and tend not to have a sense of humor about their precious convictions.

By the way, how did it take so long for people to comprehend that Albright was being referred to as "anti-life" in so far as she oversaw the bombing-to-death and starving-to-death of innocent human beings in her official Cabinet capacity? I wonder why folks jumped to the assumption that it was somehow a reactionary snipe at Albright for supporting abortion rights? If the meaning was actually supposed to be the latter, though, then...that don't make no sense...I highly doubt that was Wombat's point...I haven't even read the last two pages of this thread, it may be that Wombat has already clarified that it was (improbably) an anti-abortion statement, or maybe someone else has by now pointed out that it was misinterpreted as such...or maybe no one else has pointed out the obvious Comprehension Group Fail, lol. Anyway, so, why the reflexive, stubborn, collective misprision? *coughepistemicclosurecough* *coughconfirmationbiascough*

EDIT: Yeah, actually, it seems to have been Wombat. And it doesn't matter who said it. The point about Albright was clearly: You cannot be a warpig and also be a feminist. Not: Being pro-choice disqualifies you from being a feminist. Lmao, that would be LUDICROUS. (On the other hand, being anti-choice should not necessarily disqualify anyone from being a feminist, either -- the value of female existence extends far beyond and ought not to be reduced to reproduction. How many first-wavers were anti-choice, again?) How that got woefully misinterpreted by people so capable of vivid perception and incisive thinking, is genuinely worth thinking about, not just teasing you about with snark. :)
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:28 pm

Oi, you are seriously taking up the mantle of the departed Newquist in this thread? I thought it was safe to revive without that kind of automatic villainization of feminism. How naive of me. I didn't expect this kind of reaction from you, I suppose I should have. My mistake to think smart people are going to be reasonable. Rather than respond to this again, I'll do as you have done and just take it from the top in quotes. Besides, we were wondering who had concocted the Newquist troll identity - was it you all along?

Ah, never mind, just loop back here and repeat the entire exchange with the Newquist entity:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37242#p523279
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby FourthBase » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:15 pm

JackRiddler » 26 Jan 2014 12:28 wrote:Oi, you are seriously taking up the mantle of the departed Newquist in this thread? I thought it was safe to revive without that kind of automatic villainization of feminism. How naive of me. I didn't expect this kind of reaction from you, I suppose I should have. My mistake to think smart people are going to be reasonable. Rather than respond to this again, I'll do as you have done and just take it from the top in quotes. Besides, we were wondering who had concocted the Newquist troll identity - was it you all along?

Ah, never mind, just loop back here and repeat the entire exchange with the Newquist entity:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37242#p523279


Wait...that was a troll? Could've fooled me. What I quoted was pretty sensible, Jack. If that person then flamed it back and forth with you here and otherwise was a troll elsewhere, then it's news to me. I don't really give a fuck anymore about drama and gossip and lame interpersonal conflict. I don't actually care if that person was a troll. Ultimately, as I've said before, when it's time to evaluate reality, I don't really care about the people behind ideas, just the ideas. Goes for heroes, goes for enemies, goes for friends, goes for trolls. Your kneejerk butthurtedness there should give you pause. What are you reacting to? Who? Did you really read and digest what I wrote? Or did the adrenaline blind you to half of what I said, and skew the rest of it to seem more insulting than it actually was? Was it insulting, or was it just true? You want this thread to be the equivalent of a grouphug emoticon? Or would it be useful and fun to have a sharp but not bitter review of why feminists and environmentalists might ever get a bum rap despite most basic feminist and environmentalist positions being moral no-brainers? Villainize feminism? WTF? Overreact much, Jack? Right now you do, lol. I might often disagree with and argue against and mock the everloving shit out of Jezebel-ism and Upworthy-ism and BlackBloc-ism and your LeftForum-ism. (I'm loyal to reality alone, I criticize whomever, about whatever, whenever it seems warranted.) And I might be an antisocial buffoon. But I'm not some fucking caricature who would ever villainize feminism. Perhaps it slipped your mind, but I'm the same dude who created the Women of the World thread. Very, very little has changed about how I feel and think about the world since. Anyway, read what I wrote again. Carefully, this time. And, only after applying some kind of soothing balm, so that you're unblinded. :thumbsup
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:54 pm

Dude, I am zen. No adrenaline here. Boredom, maybe. Sighs, surely. Don't be projecting emotional states on to me that seem to be emanating from your own texts. Just saying.

One could start a thread on democracy and people might talk about Athens and Tom Paine and the French Revolution and is it even possible, etc.? It's unlikely that anyone will react to it by saying: "Obama, Bush and Hitler were all elected! Is that what you support, when you speak of democracy?!"

One can't do that with feminism. The reactions are going to be a lot more ooga-ooga. People have been primed to hate. There isn't going to be a discussion of the sufragettes or Betty Friedan or Emma Goldman or Carol Gilligan or Silvia Federici or something. Automatically, some troll (a function, not an identity) is going to come in and demand to talk about Madeline Albright, Margaret Thatcher and Condoleezza Rice. Because feminism, Laura Bush said that's why Afghanistan was invaded. Feminism, it's a murder ideology of the New World Order invented by Rockefeller to destroy the family and split the people so that the elites can more easily rule them. This is of course pretty much the right-wing pavlovian response to feminism. Sorry if that's so, but we don't live in a vacuum. It's a daily thing, it can be observed. (Labels are neither destinies nor magic spells; they're often just words and the question should be whether they accurately describe something.) Someone says women's rights, and some reactionary is right away going to start screaming about Hillary Clinton. This is what your Newquist did.

And is this your idea of how to start a dialogue with me?

FourthBase » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:54 am wrote:
Carol Newquist » 03 Oct 2013 11:16 wrote:Jack, your response to me was a long-winded diatribe rationalizing Identity Politics.


Which, of course, if you go back, this

a) was not in the least the case (I didn't even talk about "identity politics," whatever that is -- a conservative's pejorative label for not taking white econo-normative American men as the norm, basically) -- and,

b) was even shorter than what he said.

But a troll knows which phrases to employ -- long-winded! diatribe! capitalized Identity Politics -- which words have been loaded and weaponized a certain way, so as to preclude response (like "conspiracy theory," the famous example around here).

So, as I said to Newquist at that point, having some self-respect: Fuck you. (This is sure to be quoted in other threads as evidence of how mean I am, naturally without the context.)

To you, however, I also say: You may try again. You can decide whether you want to have a dialogue or start your posts directly by reviving six-month-old attacks on me and talking about how deep and true they are. Or if you find something of value in Newquist, you could repost that without including the "Fuck JackRiddler and his commie ideology" bit at the start.

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby FourthBase » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:49 pm

Eh, I really should've excised that first sentence from the quote, because the troll was unfair to you and simply wrong. But the rest of what I quoted was definitely a valuable perspective, troll or not. Feminism, or rather, what it means to be a feminist, has become painfully unimaginative. Whenever I see instances of feminism these days, it always seems to be a useless exercise in policing offensive speech or in guaranteeing women the same right to be a slave or a bossman within pretty much the same exact system, or overthrowing the whole system to install a Marxist utopia, or abolishing all systems, or deconstructing Miley along preconceived feminist and antiracist lines, or not deconstructing Miley because that would be slut-shaming...Honestly, I don't even know what Western feminism is, everywhere I look it's fractured into a bunch of petty, puny, or unrelated concerns. I do know there are billions of oppressed women, who are on average slightly but significantly more miserable and unfree than their male counterparts. Some are basically enslaved, some brutally violated. (The worst patriarchal misogynists in the world are Muslim states. But, it's funny, you don't hear nearly as much complaining from the left about those states as you do about these States, as if the mere prospect of returning to 1950's America is somehow scarier than the current regimes stuck in the 1500's that these women are trapped in by force. Odd. There are major injustices and women who desperately need help and empowerment, there are men who need to be shamed, corrected, even forcibly prevented from abusing women. But the billion of them who are Muslims more or less get a free pass from the left, because maybe the enemy-of-my-enemy thing, or maybe because the left can't itself reconcile the double-binds it has imposed on the world, the multicultural imperative to respect the Other vs. the feminist imperative to condemn patriarchal misogyny.) I know that those women deserve better. I know their problems take precedence over, say, an American bourgeois chick whose feelings are hurt over a bad joke. I know that there are other ways to live, untold different ways to restructure societies, governments, economies. And that most of what passes for "feminism" today is a shocking waste of time compared to the opportunity present to remake the world. And what the troll noted was basically just that. Feminists need to think outside the box. Their own box, not just The Man's.
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby Project Willow » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:14 pm

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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby slimmouse » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:47 pm

That video along with 4Bs commentary is priceless.

Not that it will stop me masturbating you understand ;)

Just like abortion to the individual woman concerned and with all of its consequences, thats MY/ HER own personal business
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby FourthBase » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:24 pm

If that right there is feminism, then I'm that kind of feminist. So, a Sarah Silverman feminist. (I tend to side with whoever is funniest, because there be truth, there be intelligence, there be brutal honesty.) I've long been a modified Ti-Grace feminist. She bullshat the least, is a genius, and is the funniest radical feminist ever. I nodded my head and chuckled to half of the SCUM Manifesto as well, so I could be a Solanas feminist, too. However, the same could be said for Vilar's The Manipulated Man, so I can also be a Vilar anti-feminist. I find it impossible, in the quest to fully comprehend reality, to use anything but a composite, stereoscopic lens. But, yes, there are feminists I love. Feminists I adore!

Wait...

"That video along with 4Bs commentary is priceless."

...was I supposed to have been contradicted? :dunno:
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby FourthBase » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:41 am

Hey, perfect timing for a hot-off-the-presses TLP post:

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/01/ ... rberg.html
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:59 am

I've watched the Sarah and Jesus video twice.

It's gold.

I'd love to engage further on this thread, but unrelated to anything in particular, am taking a break of at least one week from RI to get other stuff done.

Here is my farewell post for the next one week to three and a half years:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37667&p=532758#p532758
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Re: Study: Everyone loves feminists and environmentalists!

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:01 pm

I've decided that I only want to get involved in women-led movements from here on out, for a number of reasons: I resent those who push me into leadership roles, the touchy-feely capitalist stink of "leadership training", and always have preferred to advise and follow over the boring drudgery of doling out tasks and delegation; I loathe competition and jocks; I have bounced around enough to know what rubs me the wrong way and what I feel works; my neighborhood is chock full of energetic and active 2nd wave riot grrrls so opportunities will not be difficult to come by; and lastly, the millennial generation currently asserting their radicalism and influence grew up around these concepts and have had access to more information than any of us had during our formative years; they're angry and they're ready. It also reminds me of my childhood, when it was easier to make friends with the girls because the boys just wanted to punch each other in the face, all day everyday. Sometimes I still feel that instinct deep inside, when I just want to get away from all the dudes at work or in activism.

Take a conversation I witnessed recently on social media. An old friend was discussing her painful process of unpacking privilege and absorptive ambient racism in her life and some other friends were commenting, reminding her about the old ladyfest days of process and workshops (ladyfest is still happening, necessary and relevant). My friend noted that her personal efforts go well beyond the scope of those old efforts / projects / actions (probably outside of my range of comprehension), but there were so many helpful comments that gave me a lot of hope for a growing, evolving future of anti-fascist movements.
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