Mass Shooting in California

[slomo]

I want to point out the depths some people will fall to create drama and pretend to be persecuted:

OP in a post to r/TwoXChromosomes:

I love TwoX. In the two years since I’ve been a redditor, TwoX has been a huge support system for me. It’s a place where I can air my grievances, ask for advice, share my stories and provide support to other women who need it. It was a breath of fresh air, a break from male-central that is the rest of Reddit. But I just can’t do it anymore. In the two weeks since it’s become a default, I’ve gotten PMs telling me that I should stop “lying” about being raped, because “you know you liked it”. That I’m going to hell for having an abortion. That my inability to carry a child is punishment for being such a “stupid cunt.” Even after posting harmless, non-inflammatory comments. And I’m just one user.

Here's what a moderator has to say about this woman's apparent harassment:

Hi, 2XC. Since this thread's getting a fair amount of attention, I'd just like to take this opportunity to explain a few things around the situation from an admin perspective that I think it's useful for people to keep in mind as this topic continues to come up.

I mostly just want to urge people to not take everything at face value. There are a lot of people that seem quite invested in trying to get the mods to remove this subreddit from the defaults, and unfortunately that means that they're willing to try to cheat, lie, and do various other unsavory things to influence this decision.

For example, the OP of this thread was using at least 5 alternate accounts to attempt to tilt things in here, including upvoting their own submission and supportive comments (and they've now been banned from the site for that). There's generally just a great deal of attempted manipulation going on around the topic of 2XC being a default, between people attempting to manipulate votes, using multiple accounts to post comments supportive of their side, organized groups brigading relevant posts, etc. Some people have even been performing what's often referred to as a "false flag", where even though they're actually normally a contributing member of the subreddit, they've been creating alt accounts to make or upvote harassing comments/messages in order to make that issue seem more prevalent than it actually is.

And on the topic of harassing PMs, one of the most frustrating aspects of the situation from our perspective is that there's been a significant amount of lying on this end. We've received quite a few reports about users who have claimed to have received a large amount of harassment, but when we investigate we find that they've often never received any PMs at all, or only one message when they claim to have received many. Some people have even gone so far as creating alts to PM themselves with, so that they can take screenshots for "proof".

I'm certainly not trying to say that there hasn't been any harassment, because some definitely has actually occurred (and please report it to us by sending a modmail to /r/reddit.com if it happens to you). But between the various outside groups trying quite hard to push 2XC out, the false flags, and the lying, please take all claims about it with a large grain of salt.

Here's the whole log:

http://redditlog.com/snapshots/621713

Luther's doing the same kind of false flag smear campaign. It's revolting.

[Searcher08]

The way I see it is one is either an alpha male or they are not an alpha male,

And you know this, how?

you cannot make yourself an alpha male and there is nothing wrong with being an alpha male IF that is who you are naturally,

Do you have any idea how patronising that sounds? Your model of the world stops at 'things are ok' IF 'that is who they are naturally' WHO DECIDES what is 'naturally? You? On what basis? Genetic? Cultural?

the dangerous ones are the ones who are not alpha males but want to be so they try hard at it and become the sort of douchebags you see on these forums.

This to me is layering an trowel-load of interpretation onto a system that you have described more by your own internal emotional responses than structure or function.
So you see 'dangerous ones' becoming 'douchebags on forums'?

It is like everything else in life,

You know everything else in life??? How do you make an assessment against a standard such as this?

if you really have skills you dont brag and talk about it,

Seriously, projection, much?? I have known plenty of people across plenty of skill sets across multiple domains who were brilliant in their chosen fields and bragged and talked about it plenty.

the ones who have no skills

No skills at WHAT IN PARTICULAR? As assessed by WHOM?

are the ones trying to go around and convince everyone else, and themselves, that they have them. They are the dangerous ones because they have identity problems, they dont know who or what they are and they are easily influenced and led astray by others in the same boat, the blind leading the blind.

This sounds like yet another attempt to establish a set of 'enemies' or problematic humans. To me, you land as seeing the world through a lens of fear, based on extreme generalisations of your own thinking. Your metaphor contains elements of easy influence and contagion, so it will be self-enhancing and subject to hysteresis - hysteria.

What next? Establish connections of this pathetic character to the "Far Right"? Search his manifesto for "hate speech"?

And when these douchetards fail at their little alpha male experiments they blame everyone else for it, instead of just embracing who they are and not trying to be something they arent, they set themselves up for failure and it is everyones fault but their own.

Again this 'embracing who they are' - what does that MEAN?
Your logic treats identity as a fixed construct, and in a reductionist, binary "You are Alpha or Not Alpha!"
And when someone tries to cross your bullshit 'binary boundary' they are not "Being who they are"!

This is why I fucking LOATHE reductionism. It is so insidious. It reduces so much discussion to Right/Wrong flag flying and tries to exterminate nuance.

You dont have to be an alpha male to get the ladies, plenty of them like the quiet, reserved thoughtful type guys.

What a deeply patronising, stereotyping sexist statement!

But one thing they do NOT like for sure, is a guy trying to be something he isnt, and that is why these assholes fail and then blame everyone else for it. Girls can see right through that sort of thing right away.

Over-generalised and deeply sexist, subjectivist nonsense - "if I feel it, it must be true... and of everyone".

[Searcher08]

I want to point out the depths some people will fall to create drama and pretend to be persecuted:

OP in a post to r/TwoXChromosomes:

I love TwoX. In the two years since I’ve been a redditor, TwoX has been a huge support system for me. It’s a place where I can air my grievances, ask for advice, share my stories and provide support to other women who need it. It was a breath of fresh air, a break from male-central that is the rest of Reddit. But I just can’t do it anymore. In the two weeks since it’s become a default, I’ve gotten PMs telling me that I should stop “lying” about being raped, because “you know you liked it”. That I’m going to hell for having an abortion. That my inability to carry a child is punishment for being such a “stupid cunt.” Even after posting harmless, non-inflammatory comments. And I’m just one user.

Here's what a moderator has to say about this woman's apparent harassment:

Hi, 2XC. Since this thread's getting a fair amount of attention, I'd just like to take this opportunity to explain a few things around the situation from an admin perspective that I think it's useful for people to keep in mind as this topic continues to come up.

I mostly just want to urge people to not take everything at face value. There are a lot of people that seem quite invested in trying to get the mods to remove this subreddit from the defaults, and unfortunately that means that they're willing to try to cheat, lie, and do various other unsavory things to influence this decision.

For example, the OP of this thread was using at least 5 alternate accounts to attempt to tilt things in here, including upvoting their own submission and supportive comments (and they've now been banned from the site for that). There's generally just a great deal of attempted manipulation going on around the topic of 2XC being a default, between people attempting to manipulate votes, using multiple accounts to post comments supportive of their side, organized groups brigading relevant posts, etc. Some people have even been performing what's often referred to as a "false flag", where even though they're actually normally a contributing member of the subreddit, they've been creating alt accounts to make or upvote harassing comments/messages in order to make that issue seem more prevalent than it actually is.

And on the topic of harassing PMs, one of the most frustrating aspects of the situation from our perspective is that there's been a significant amount of lying on this end. We've received quite a few reports about users who have claimed to have received a large amount of harassment, but when we investigate we find that they've often never received any PMs at all, or only one message when they claim to have received many. Some people have even gone so far as creating alts to PM themselves with, so that they can take screenshots for "proof".

I'm certainly not trying to say that there hasn't been any harassment, because some definitely has actually occurred (and please report it to us by sending a modmail to /r/reddit.com if it happens to you). But between the various outside groups trying quite hard to push 2XC out, the false flags, and the lying, please take all claims about it with a large grain of salt.

Here's the whole log:

http://redditlog.com/snapshots/621713

Luther's doing the same kind of false flag smear campaign. It's revolting.

I think it is similar to other ongoing thought-police campaigns here at R.I.

I find it very 'thought stopping'. It seems to be about creating an "Approved list" of acceptable behavior and identities, wrapped in unexamined truisms.

Personally, this incident makes me wonder about:

How to assist teens of wealthy people in LA be able to have a real sense of themselves?
How to assist teens / young wealthy adults in LA to give them a sense of their own power to create and make a difference?
How to help wealthy teens who have Aspergers, in LA, to understand how it may affect their life?

[Searcher08]

jlaw172364, thanks, your post is the first reasonably accurate characterization of the MRM, PUA, and TRP I've seen in this whole sorry thread.

Seconded.

Also, I saw on the Mail Online a link to
http://www.scribd.com/doc/225960813/Elliot-Rodger-Santa-Barbara-mass-shooting-suspect-My-Twisted-World-manifesto

And the killer's description of his very early life in the first couple of pages indicate a much more complex picture than a douchebag driven insane by PUA fora. IMO, a picture which deserves more / better / different engagement than shown on this thread.

[elfismiles]

Thank you Slomo for your comments about MRM ... I've no doubt that there are extremists of the type LB is asserting are present in this or that "movement" but I know from personal family experience that there are those who, like Slomo describes, have seen and experienced sexism against men and the resulting "reverse" bias / discrimination based on gender in the courts and with law-enforcement; ie - men can't be raped, men can't be the abused victims, and women have an inherent biological preeminence when it comes to child custody.

Meanwhile ... Rodger's family attorney repeatedly refers to ER as "child"... says he was being treated by multiple professionals ... and "the child was diagnosed, at an earlier age, as being a highly functional aspergers syndrome child."

Wouldn't that fit with his obvious inability to understand relationships are deeper than materiality? Not saying this is the ONE thing at play here as obviously there are multiple factors at work in this Amok-America plague.

Lawyer: Killer was high-functioning autistic, felt bullied (Video)
Family lawyer said parents worried about California mass killer
POSTED: 02:40 AM PDT May 25, 2014 UPDATED: 03:28 AM PDT May 25, 2014
Rodger family attorney Alan Schifman said Elliott Rodger always had trouble making friends. He said the 22-year old Santa Barbara City College student never had a history of gun violence.
http://www.keyt.com/news/lawyer-killer- ... d/26162668

Meanwhile Meanwhile ...

I don't think anyone has posted about the OTHER mass-shooting:

Gunmen on Run after Jewish Museum Shooting in Brussels
Post by elfismiles » 25 May 2014 13:26
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38126

Isla Vista and Brussels Shootings
Saturday, May 24, 2014
http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2014/ ... tings.html

[Hunter]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... ponse.html


He was NOT anti-PUA by the way, he was mad at those in the PUA community who sell books, dvds and workshops on how to get laid but didnt deliver on their promises, he was mad they took his money and their services didnt help him get laid.

The goal of the Anti-Pickup-Artist Movement, as stated on its highly official title page, is to reveal "the scams, deception, and misleading marketing techniques used by dating gurus and the seduction community to deceive men and profit from them." Here, you'll find the sad, scary, skeezy world of men who have turned their backs on said seduction community after spending thousands of dollars on "educational materials," seminars, and boot camps to no avail.

http://jezebel.com/5906648/the-angry-un ... up-artists


For all his hatred of women, 4 of his 6 victims were males.

[elfismiles]

Ocean of tears: Some 3,000 people stand during a candlelight vigil held to honor the victims of Friday night's mass shooting on Saturday, May 24, 2014, on the campus of the University of California, Santa Barbara
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... g-him.html

[jlaw172364]

I skimmed his manifesto a bit last night. Some thoughts:

1. He had a strong case of spoiled brat syndrome, having been born into a materially wealthy family and having all his material needs met, he naturally expected to get everything else in life at will; women became objects to him, things that he should be able to have by birthright, after all his father married a beautiful woman, divorced her, and then found a beautiful girlfriend.

2. I never got the sense that his family had much influence over his thoughts and behaviors. Instead, I kept reading over and over and over again about the huge influencing role video-games played in his life. He viewed a Level 60 WoW character as an important life achievement! Basically, he was a child his entire life. There was never any evidence of having gone through a meaningful rite of passage into manhood. His family sent him to therapist after therapist to solve his problems, but they were never solved by the therapists. When confronted with his videos, they called the police and the police confront him in their stead. It's like they abdicated responsibility over raising him to other people. I've seen this a lot with "difficult" children.

3. Since he was born into a life of wealth and privilege, and developed an enormous entitlement complex, he viewed the slightest trespass over his whims and wishes as horrific slight or setback, that would "traumatize" him and "scar" him. So, basically, one bad social interaction where he came out a loser, and that was it. Every single one reinforced in his mind that the was worthless.

4. Having no sense of inherent self-worth, he tried to conform to whatever the "cool" kids were doing, but it never worked very well. Hobbies and pursuits were abandoned if they weren't "cool" anymore.

5. He developed profoundly negative emotions to other people who had more success than him, which only helped push people away and alienate him.

[slomo]

There was never any evidence of having gone through a meaningful rite of passage into manhood. His family sent him to therapist after therapist to solve his problems, but they were never solved by the therapists. When confronted with his videos, they called the police and the police confront him in their stead. It's like they abdicated responsibility over raising him to other people. I've seen this a lot with "difficult" children.

This issue is central to MRM and TRP ideologies: male rites-of-passage matter. Parenting matters. In particular, fathers matter.

You won't see it spelled out in exactly those terms all the time, but if you read the subtext, it's always there.

This is a spectacular failure in parenting: a vulnerable individual whose instability was made dangerous by abdication of responsibility by his father. I'm not going to blame the father per se (Rodgers is ultimately responsible for his own actions, as we all are) but the societal lesson to be learned here is that young men need substantial male role models.

[smoking since 1879]

wasn't there some tom cruise movie relating to this?
I distinctly remember seeing a trailer with him hamming it up to some 'seminar' of desperate losers.

I think it's about time you folks in the USA shut hollywood for good, it's clearly rotten.

Peace

[slomo]

wasn't there some tom cruise movie relating to this?
I distinctly remember seeing a trailer with him hamming it up to some 'seminar' of desperate losers.

I think it's about time you folks in the USA shut hollywood for good, it's clearly rotten.

Peace

Magnolia.

Which was also, ultimately, about shitty parenting.

[smoking since 1879]

Thanks Slomo

[Luther Blissett]

I submit that jlaw172364's assessment of the men's rights movement is not accurate, and is outmoded by about two years (around the same time that SPLC classified the men's rights movement as a hate movement). The aspects most publicly visible to outsiders have much more to do with friendzoning and involuntary celibacy (to lift a phrase from Elliot Rodger's / men's rights activists' strangely confluent play books) than they do with custody and divorce law. It's pretty rare to see, even in the most radical feminist and intersectional communities, denunciation of these old-model issues, and I don't think anyone's doing that here.

Whose fault is it that the public face of men's rights has shifted to being a majority 17-20 year-old, ultra-conservative, 98% white cishet phenomenon? Certainly not the feminists'. Maybe older men who are primarily concerned with divorce and custody should distance themselves from these boys rather than double-down on it? The ways in which he was shaped by his early life (via his manifesto) found validation and legitimization through the widely-used anti-woman violent rhetoric used in those communities.

The bit about /r/theredpill moderators deleting Rodger's posts was told to me by my girlfriend (the same girlfriend whose cousin was in the sorority targeted by Rodger and was a block away) while we were both engaged in multiple discussions online yesterday. Maybe she misspoke and meant "misc," which has been covered widely online, but I'm definitely giving her the benefit of the doubt. Our conversation specifically moved to corruption amongst reddit moderators, which is another hot topic these days. In searching for his username now, I'm seeing a lot of people saying "Holy shit. Those quotes read like something straight out of /r/theredpill," and "I wonder if I typed up random phrases from elliot rodger's video, how many upvotes I would get?" so it's not just us.

There's nothing rigorous about adopting the default misogynistic stance of mainstream American culture. What's the lesson I'm supposed to learn? Give violent rhetoric and physical threats towards women a pass?

[82_28]

I've never read nor watched The Hunger Games and am only vaguely familiar. However, there is this:

The Hunger Games is a 2012 American science fiction adventure film directed by Gary Ross and based on the novel of the same name by Suzanne Collins. The picture is the first installment in The Hunger Games film series and was produced by Nina Jacobson and Jon Kilik, with a screenplay by Ross, Collins and Billy Ray. The film stars Jennifer Lawrence, Josh Hutcherson, Liam Hemsworth, Woody Harrelson, Elizabeth Banks, Lenny Kravitz, Stanley Tucci and Donald Sutherland.[5] The story takes place in a dystopian post-apocalyptic future in the nation of Panem, where boys and girls between the ages of 12 and 18 must take part in the Hunger Games, a televised annual event in which the "tributes" are required to fight to the death until there is one remaining who will be crowned the victor. Katniss Everdeen (Lawrence) volunteers to take her younger sister's place in the games. Joined by her district's male tribute Peeta Mellark (Hutcherson), Katniss travels to the Capitol to train for the Hunger Games under the guidance of former victor Haymitch Abernathy (Harrelson).





The kid was steeped in a miasma of wealth and one degree of separation from the insipid ultra-violence of Hollywood of which his father played a large part in distributing to young kids everywhere. I always wonder what it must be like to be born to a famous person (or wealthy) and what age it dawns on you that you are "better" than others. At birth, you have no idea. You're just as equal from birth with a single mother who works a 9 to 5 at minimum wage -- for a brief time.

[82_28]

wasn't there some tom cruise movie relating to this?
I distinctly remember seeing a trailer with him hamming it up to some 'seminar' of desperate losers.

I think it's about time you folks in the USA shut hollywood for good, it's clearly rotten.

Peace

Just saw this as I was putting the above together.