Towards a new RI

[solace]

Better than banning Bluenoseclaret: ignore Bluenoseclaret. Completely.

Don't you see what happens after that? Twenty motherfuckers from Stormfront and whatnot eventually find a home here to talk about the Jew animals on 80% of the threads, and they can debate their racist brethren from the KKK about whether the Arab animals are worse.

It's really unfortunate that there are probably individuals here who would be ok with this kind of scenario unfolding.

And you can recognize them by their support for bluenoseclaret.

[Project Willow]

Hi everyone. So much for a "new RI" eh?

Just enjoyed a splendid day with Project Willow, Twyla LaSarc and Perelandra at the art street fest Willow organized. Between exhibits, live music and helping as we could with the festival, we had some great RI-themed conversations, mused over 82_28's plea not to fuck up the forum and I think we all expressed a general optimism for its future.

Then I come home to this.

bleah.

It was lovely to see you and thanks for your hard work!

82 is right in that because we know each other IRL, we respond to each other differently. When I get into trouble here is when I write something to someone I would never say in person.

Jack, would you speak to people with whom you disagree IRL as you do here? Somehow I just can't imagine that.

If we sat all the regulars in a room for a few hours most of this (incredibly frustrating perpetual) personal acrimony would disappear. So next time you're about to fire off a nasty to a familiar poster, imagine them sitting there in your living room, drinking a glass of wine.

I know this point's been made numerous times about online communication, but maybe a reminder will be helpful.

[Project Willow]

And you can recognize them by their support for bluenoseclaret.

And let's stop referring to people in the room (present on this board) as "them", because really you're just engaging in the sort of othering that you seem so concerned about.

[82_28]

I write like I talk and when I want to talk like I write, I can also do that. I'm more of a "lay it on me if you're comfortable" type guy. I'm thinking back to all my years on the Internet and I can't think of one time I have trolled anything in order to upset people -- besides the early days of focus on the family's web presence -- that was a fun debate in which I "totally schooled" the guy. I've totally pissed off people because of my idealist far left views -- such as living and let live, pacifist, utter hatred for cruelty of any kind and I say "fuck you" where warranted. I was telling my dad the other day that I've never said "fuck you" to a person in my life. I think I said that upthread. But he said "fuck you" to me and I was offended and my response was "bro, don't ever say fuck you to me". My personalization of being offended by something is "bro, chill the fuck out" or something along those lines.

I live in another dimension I guess and sometimes it sucks because people don't understand people who are 100% non-cruel, no matter what. I can get ideas of ways I can get "back at" people and would fully "school" them but I never will, personally in a way to hurt them as in I would would not want to have it done to me.

Check sig. Again, no truer way to at least create "pockets" of nothing but peace and general companionship. There is no you, there is no me, there is all. . .

[smiths]

"When I get into trouble here is when I write something to someone I would never say in person."

yes, thats been my sin a few times, I have got carried away and used a kind of arrogance or hostility that iw ould not use if i was talking to someone IRL

the catch is that in real life conversations there are not groups of bastards lurking about and joining in with the express purpose of sowing hatred, doubt and confusion, or simply just fucking up an nice constructive conversation for laughs

The rules of RI seem sound to me. The only question seems to be whether there are enough mods to enforce them.

I am in Australia and most arguments happen when i am fast asleep so I am no good for helping.

Keep up the good work though everyone, i still check the site nearly everyday after almost 10 years of being a member.

[Ben D]

Racism is everywhere- as are right wing ideas in general. It is part of the atmosphere.

Rigorous Intuition is by no means separate from all this- and deservedly notorious posters have come and gone here- again and again and again...

Contrast is needed to create a distinguishable reality, without which there is nothing to to experience.

I produce the light and make the darkness, I bring goodness and create evil, I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

So all is as it should be, and when a soul who has fought the good fight, from either side of the complementary opposite perspectives, desires the peace that passes understanding....refuge is found in the underlying unity of the apparent dualistic reality.

[brainpanhandler]

But it should also go without saying that finger-pointing will do nothing to further the cause of forum livelihood.

What?

Members can help maintain the health of the board. If you see something that you think needs attention, please pm myself or a moderator with the link, or use the alert button.

Or in other words, finger point. I have no desire to be lively here with cryptofascists. Fuck that shit. I'll point the finger at that.

I made no such inference otherwise

You mean that I have a desire to be lively with cryptofascists? You're right. You didn't. And I didn't say you did or didn't. but I suppose it depends on what 'lively' means.

You're edit makes your statement clearer, although baseless is obviously a judgement call. And in this context where racists and fascists cannot freely insinuate their ideas into the forum it's even harder to substantiate. They're sneaky and circumspect, you see. Hence the term 'cryptofascist'.

I was referring to AD's allusion to others in the forum being "ok" with 'cryptofascist' sentiment. Seems baseless to me.

AD said that? I think what is true is that members have differing levels of tolerance. I have none. If it were my call I'd ban them the moment it became clear to me by my standards just what they were about, regardless of whether they just managed to stay within the strict interpretation of the board rules. Others here would consider that behavior fascist. I'm all in favor of the ACLU defending the first amendment rights of hate groups. but the RI forum is not the town square.

Does that mean I think we are under siege? No. That's silly. but I think some people here are being naive.

[82_28]

Well, if you're going to be full on racist you will be "smoked out" by at least one of us. But as it stands I feel the board is pretty tame. I don't think I've ever gotten pissed here other than not being umnderstood because I probably didn't make my case better and used too many "fuckity fucks".

In fact, I think we should "invite" various strains of right wing thought and "dress them down" for practice and get to see what makes them tick.

[smiths]

I have had a pretty good career of doing that,

I have worked in a lot of working class, often right-leaning work environments and have got pretty good at engaging, pushing, pulling back, pushing, etc etc
at my last job which was mostly populated by truck drivers, forklift drivers and unskilled labourers, racism was fairly commonplace, sexism was the absolute norm, and the vast majority voted for the Australian Liberal party (conservative/reactionary)

the interesting thing is that as you go under the surface you find a hell of a lot of decent, caring, loyal people under those ignorant exteriors which are often just bravado and front
i was constantly known and baited for my left-wing views and loved nothing more than to get involved in a 'debate', but i also knew the limits and who not to push too far

the working class men of Australia were particularly hateful to our previous female Prime Minister which i found really sad and disgusting, a lot of 'blokes' still find the idea of a powerful and intelligent woman threatening - pathetic eh

[82_28]

I used to debate the joker student missionaries on my college campus and gather a fucking crowd while I would debate them for hours if you can believe that. They brought it up! I didn't start it. I was just going to school. But they had no answers for me -- just JOIN THEIR CHURCH -- "if you had a cure for cancer, wouldn't you share it?". They couldn't answer one of my questions as to why they believe what they do with such certainty.

[Searcher08]

I have had a pretty good career of doing that,

I have worked in a lot of working class, often right-leaning work environments and have got pretty good at engaging, pushing, pulling back, pushing, etc etc
at my last job which was mostly populated by truck drivers, forklift drivers and unskilled labourers, racism was fairly commonplace, sexism was the absolute norm, and the vast majority voted for the Australian Liberal party (conservative/reactionary)

the interesting thing is that as you go under the surface you find a hell of a lot of decent, caring, loyal people under those ignorant exteriors which are often just bravado and front
i was constantly known and baited for my left-wing views and loved nothing more than to get involved in a 'debate', but i also knew the limits and who not to push too far

the working class men of Australia were particularly hateful to our previous female Prime Minister which i found really sad and disgusting, a lot of 'blokes' still find the idea of a powerful and intelligent woman threatening - pathetic eh

You have my *greatest* respect for doing this. Can I check if my intuition is accurate with you?
When I read what you said, my intuition said there were a couple of things you were doing:

A) That you might have taken the piss out of a person's viewpoint but it was done with humour and sincere person-to-person empathy - = you were totally NOT a finger-jabbin, humourless, hectoring anti-racist. So that you had a view of the person having these beliefs like something they 'carried round' with them - and could therefore drop by themselves, - rather than something they were 'infected and contagious' with - which would leave them with much less choice.

B) That you had a good-natured attitude about having the piss taken out of you

C) That you had a possibility in your mind that folks could change their attitudes and beliefs and were to be engaged with, not shunned.

Were any of those accurate?

[American Dream]

Here is a common sense approach to improving R.I.: bluenoseclaret and jakell should go. Sounder and Searcher should change their act wrt running interference for such odious characters. Those few who play a (somewhat) lesser role in such defensive strategies should focus more on supporting the posting guidelines that Jeff and others gave us, rather than undermining them.

[seemslikeadream]

^^^^^

since I am not allowed to say it

[jakell]

Hey. Looks like I got a mention, and out-of the-blue-too.

Whilst I am interested in your forum dynamics, and it's oh-so-gently downward curve, I didn't feel qualified to comment here, but I've been given an 'in'. One recent comment that caught my attention is this:

Well, if you're going to be full on racist you will be "smoked out" by at least one of us. But as it stands I feel the board is pretty tame. I don't think I've ever gotten pissed here other than not being umnderstood because I probably didn't make my case better and used too many "fuckity fucks".

In fact, I think we should "invite" various strains of right wing thought and "dress them down" for practice and get to see what makes them tick.

It is unthinkable that any right wing views could ever be expressed here because such such things would be howled down before the author got to the end of the second sentence (even one sentence may be beyond the pale for some).
The atmosphere is so fraught that even folks who 'don't smell right' are chewed over with the conveniently vague and usefully variable label of 'cryptofascist'.

There's no need to invite specimens in though (as if that would ever happen), this is the internet and you can observe people in their own habitiat. I know some of you seem to think that the I'm talking of places like Stormfront et al, but I'm not. A place on a similar level of cognition to here might be 'Majority Rights', there's probably an American equivalent too, but I'm not aware of it

[brainpanhandler]

C) That you had a possibility in your mind that folks could change their attitudes and beliefs and were to be engaged with, not shunned.

I have so rarely seen this in my life of 46 years on this earth that it always shocks me when I witness it, even on small issues. It's virtually non-existent here. I hold open the possibility to begin with and for quite some time. but generally after years of listening to a broken record I abandon any hope. We have been members here a long time. I have seen little to no change in attitudes and beliefs on the topics which are the most contentious. This is not because people are not using the right techniques with each other searcher. It's generally because people are pig headed stubborn mules intent on defending their fragile egos to the very end. No NLP trickery, no delicate rhetorical dance will change that. Some people cannot be objective. They cannot. They believe they have too much to lose.

I give you points for maintaining your optimism, but I have to deduct way more points for your lack of realism. Good luck with your quest to change the world one person at a time, inch by inch.