Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Joao » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:27 pm

I think rather that you need to present evidence to support your claims. Your allegations of "a section discussing what happens when children are given LSD" have been shown to be false. The ECCO reference is just nonsense. Thanks for the groundbreaking news that Lilly had intelligence connections.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:28 pm

guruilla » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:56 pm wrote:
brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:43 pm wrote:It is obvious you at least shared the name (named the name) of the person with AD, who then spilled it into cyberspace. Should I have clarified what I meant?


Obviously you should have.

In fact the only way someone could deduce the "name" is because you threw a hissy fit about it here on this thread. Had you kept quiet or PM-ed me there would be nothing on this thread to indicate anything about the identity of your correspondent.

If you didn't want me to share it with anyone, you needed to be clear about that. It's true I could have been more clear with AD (who was understandably curious), or simply referred her to you, but since you never stipulated anything besides not mentioning the name on this board I saw no reason to be coy.

The picture wasn't meant to back any argument. It was just the latest thing that showed up in my inbox. You seem to be taking a defensive position when no one is attacking.


Oh god, I think I know what is going on, we basically have a breakdown of a shared language. When I say:

I didn't ask for permission to publish so if you talk about it here please don't name names.


That means if you tell someone the name, in relation to this thread, you are naming names. When you shared the name with AD you did exactly what I didn't want, thereby having the name mentioned on this board, because we both know she'd be more than likely to address a reply using that person's name. While some people don't mind using real living peoples names, regarding such speculative and inflammatory material, I think it ins't smart nor polite. Believe it or not, there's a small chance that these claims about Cohen could be false or incomplete and implicating others in it could invite static into their lives and damage reputations. I don't worry about Cohen, this probably is just an allure add on for him, but others on the periphery in the RW deserve some consideration.

Also, I give more credit that people can follow the subtext of threads (no offense backtoiam) and the timing of responses. I thought I was pretty clear initially, I don't know why I have to communicate with you after you did something I asked you not to do.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:50 pm

Is there anything in Lilly's record that leads you to think he would turn down a golden opportunity to advance his career by experimenting on a group of orphans?
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Joao » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:59 pm

That's what it comes down to? I'm not aware of any evidence which would lead me to believe he stopped beating his wife, either. I'm not defending Lilly; I'm inquiring about specific allegations which, in this context, also speak to the credibility of the accusations against Cohen.

Time and again in this thread, the pattern has been:
1. Allegations without evidence
2. Defensiveness when pressed for evidence
3. "You need to read more."
4. "OK, there's no actual evidence but doesn't it just seem true?"
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:23 pm

I never met Lilly. However I know he visited Donald Hebb at McGill, when Hebb and Cameron kept a group of orphans in an underground behavioral lab in the old stable building next door to th4 Allan. I know many neuroscientists visited because they were very interested in Hebb's ground breaking research on "IQ in rats".
And long ago I read an article linking Lilly to LSD experiments on children. Let's say for the sake of argument Lilly was not involved. A whole CIA-funded cabal of scientists, like Nolan D.C. Lewis and Abram Hoffer were however. Many people in Montreal volunteered (or offered their children) to be part of these experiments. Including Leonard Cohen, who was paid $20 a day to be in flotation tanks, which Lilly was also investigating.

Why do you find all this so incredible? I knew a painter who turned down a chance to take LSD for a Cameron study on drugs and creativity - but others accepted. Some of these people write to me detailing their experiences. Many have longterm issues with anxiety and memory loss. There were literally thousands of victims and Leonard himself has suffered profound bouts of anxiety for which the same McGill doctors have offered him experimental medication.

I fail to see why anyone would choose to disbelieve all this.


.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:47 pm

I replied to this, but maybe it got lost?

Brekin, you asked if there is a photo of Leonard and me. I only known of one, taken by Ms Unmentionable in 1978.

That's the simple truth. There is no conspiracy. I have a right to know who's repeating the fictional story that actually orginated in the fertile imagination of the abovementioned Unmentionable source.

Are you getting the picture yet? Why the need for deep secrecy unless to obscure the fact that your source is a well known rumour monger and this particular rumour can be traced back to her with 100% probability because she fabricated it originally?

Yes, its embarassing for both of you, I'm sure. Next time, check your sources (and facts.)


♤♤♤♤♤♤♤












brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:28 pm wrote:
guruilla » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:56 pm wrote:
brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:43 pm wrote:It is obvious you at least shared the name (named the name) of the person with AD, who then spilled it into cyberspace. Should I have clarified what I meant?


Obviously you should have.

In fact the only way someone could deduce the "name" is because you threw a hissy fit about it here on this thread. Had you kept quiet or PM-ed me there would be nothing on this thread to indicate anything about the identity of your correspondent.

If you didn't want me to share it with anyone, you needed to be clear about that. It's true I could have been more clear with AD (who was understandably curious), or simply referred her to you, but since you never stipulated anything besides not mentioning the name on this board I saw no reason to be coy.

The picture wasn't meant to back any argument. It was just the latest thing that showed up in my inbox. You seem to be taking a defensive position when no one is attacking.


Oh god, I think I know what is going on, we basically have a breakdown of a shared language. When I say:

I didn't ask for permission to publish so if you talk about it here please don't name names.


That means if you tell someone the name, in relation to this thread, you are naming names. When you shared the name with AD you did exactly what I didn't want, thereby having the name mentioned on this board, because we both know she'd be more than likely to address a reply using that person's name. While some people don't mind using real living peoples names, regarding such speculative and inflammatory material, I think it ins't smart nor polite. Believe it or not, there's a small chance that these claims about Cohen could be false or incomplete and implicating others in it could invite static into their lives and damage reputations. I don't worry about Cohen, this probably is just an allure add on for him, but others on the periphery in the RW deserve some consideration.

Also, I give more credit that people can follow the subtext of threads (no offense backtoiam) and the timing of responses. I thought I was pretty clear initially, I don't know why I have to communicate with you after you did something I asked you not to do.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:17 pm

lunarmoth » Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:50 pm wrote:Is there anything in Lilly's record that leads you to think he would turn down a golden opportunity to advance his career by experimenting on a group of orphans?


Yeah: the same ethics that guided his life and career.

Transgressive ideas and spooky connections isn't really sufficient grounds for "Sure, he'd probably feed drugs to kidnapped children!"

Aside from that, of course, absolutely nothing.

Except, I guess the testimony of everyone who knew him...

But aside from that, yeah.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:27 pm

Well this has certainly got heated. I don't think it's simply a question of language problems but also different temperaments, methodologies, & sensibilities.

I also think it's a mistake to turn AD, or myself, into witnesses for an imagined prosecution. I can certainly see Joao's frustration because he did simply point out what appears to be a verifiable fact and was greeted with a defensive reaction from LM. On the other hand, it's understandable when someone is personally involved in these areas and has spent their life being disbelieved, slandered, and derided, if they might be a bit defensive.

Man Next Door is a memoir so doesn't it make more sense to ask about specific incidents and request clarification or context for them, rather than expect the author to have a fully worked out analysis of LC's secret life, complete with evidence?

Regarding brekin's last post, I'll respond privately but for the record I reject your interpretation of events and your insistence that you communicated your desire clearly, because it's more than apparent to me that you did not. I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves, however, & PM the rest in order not to drag this thread further off track.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:50 pm

AD, you can appreciate that unless you have corroborating evidence of your claims (and not just about MKUTRA, or Cameron, or McGill experiments, in general) but yours and Cohens involvement specifically, this isn't going anywhere. That is just the way it is. And this is a site that is more favorable to such speculations.

If not, all we have so far are reported conversations years past and present day, he said - she said. Some people see something, anything, written and that is enough for them. But not everyone. Since you had insider access and first hand experience of these events surely you can dig something up that would make all of this much more undeniable? Because, no I'm not getting the picture.

As far as the fictional story, I don't know what you speak and if it is something triggered by what loose lips guruilla shared or not or just old wine from the Montreal grapevine. I honestly don't care, because it sounds like more extraneous drama. Even as a unrepentant lover of gossip I'm not interested.

I still find it funny that I'm having to spend so much time in this thread. All I did was pull a Peggy Lee and ask, "Is that all there is?"
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:12 pm

brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:50 pm wrote: what loose lips guruilla

You couldn't let it lie could you brekin? (& this after I just PM-ed you nicely)

If you really wanted to keep it between us, why did you announce this at the thread, for all, including AD and your "secret source", to see:

brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm wrote:guruilla, prepare for a private communication from a primary player in a few moments.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:38 pm

Google a list of MKULTRA scientists. You'll find John Lilly is on it.

What makes you an expert on the "ethics that guided his life and work?"

I met a man on Bequia who used to hang out with John Lilly. He described him as a heavy drinker who hung out on a yacht in Bali with young women. This man also said he knew Ed Dames. And, oddly, this man had a double who was following him from place to place. The double showed up in the bar one night and impersonated him -

This is a true story. Of course I cant prove it really happened. But it's more interesting than listening to experts pretend to have expertise and knowledge about the ethics of people they have read about, who were on the CIA payroll but never harmed a hair on a little child's head.





Wombaticus Rex » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:17 pm wrote:
lunarmoth » Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:50 pm wrote:Is there anything in Lilly's record that leads you to think he would turn down a golden opportunity to advance his career by experimenting on a group of orphans?


Yeah: the same ethics that guided his life and career.

Transgressive ideas and spooky connections isn't really sufficient grounds for "Sure, he'd probably feed drugs to kidnapped children!"

Aside from that, of course, absolutely nothing.

Except, I guess the testimony of everyone who knew him...

But aside from that, yeah.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:14 pm

brekin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:50 pm wrote:
what loose lips guruilla

You couldn't let it lie could you brekin? (& this after I just PM-ed you nicely)

If you really wanted to keep it between us, why did you announce this at the thread, for all, including AD and your "secret source", to see:

brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm wrote:
guruilla, prepare for a private communication from a primary player in a few moments.


Ahh, see I thought as someone compiling information on this topic publicly and promoting it you'd appreciate another data point. I thought, as someone who has admitted the form and some of the content on the matter was problematic you would/could recognize that disavowal of even pedestrian events by a eyewitness would be a concern for the narrative as a whole. I didn't think you'd take it as further evidence that they are on the payroll of SPECTRE and should be outed and maligned publicly (especially when I said not to). I was publicly announcing that hey there's more sides to the story for your consideration and provided to you, privately, an example. Which you decided to dismiss out of hand but at the same time were eager enough to divulge at the first request. See we can keep particulars secret between us, but make the gist public. Hasn't Leonard taught you anything?
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:53 pm

Leonard taught me that is pointless to get involved with operators like yourself. You're a lovely person, Brekin, and a deep thinker. Lets leave it at that.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby identity » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:12 am

AD, thanks for "coming out" here, and being available (hopefully!) to answer any questions readers and others interested parties may have. I have a few questions:

1. The ebook is quite a bit longer than the printed book. Are you editing/updating/adding to the ebook version as time goes on?

2. Your source re: the Lennon murder suggests that it was done for revenge. Do you believe that LC murdered JL and, if so, do you think the motive was personal or was it a case of MC?

3. What was your purpose/goal in mentioning the various things which have taken place on Oct. 9th and Dec. 6th involving yourself, LC, JL, and/or the RSs (which I have quoted in a previous post)?
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Elvis » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:19 am

I'm very interested in this thread topic, but not the little misunderstandings that grow into squabbles and draw away from the main discussion. So, this is just a suggestion to resolve those communication issues privately, so as not to overshadow the main questions with them, and also we don't want to scare off our new members (welcome!) who, one way or another, stand to give us a better understanding.

Thanks. :bigsmile
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