Which gender are you?

[Agent Orange Cooper]

Baseline compassion, indeed.

May there be sincere, informed, and respectful discussion of trans politics and gender issues from here on out.

Your idea of compassion sounds a lot like giving liposuction to anorexics. You're essentially advocating for the outright destruction of human beings: the mutilation of bodies, sterilization, a new eugenics campaign that directly enriches the medical-industrial complex/pharmaceutical companies. I have no interest in capitulating to your sick ideology in the name of political correctness.

[Joao]

this thread is comically rife with projection

I challenge you to find an example where I've advocated for anything. The only "ideology" I've expressed on this topic is rejection of the idea the transgenderism is necessarily mental illness.

Your insistence to the contrary is hatred which deserves only scorn. Perhaps even worse, it's an utterly boring perspective.

[backtoiam]

Sweetheart, mandatory gender reassignment for all is coming under the ACA whether you like it or not.

Don't fight the pleasure.

Good thing i'm not the Sherriff. I would ban your ass for that.

[guruilla]

It's a shame to see the thread descend into baiting and biting when there is so much material to unpack.

One of the troubles (besides people posting emotionally rather than thoughtfully) is that there are several different areas of discussion going on simultaneously, potentially at least.

The problem in general is, those of us who are analyzing where interests and experiences intersect are raising valid questions, which are of course being ignored, within this thread, and everywhere else.

Off-hand I can think of several threads of exploration at this thread that may or may not be intertwined (in no particular order, pls note)

1) The question of biological sex and social gender roles
2) The question of possible causes for transgenderism.
3) The question of what possible outside interests the transgender agenda may be serving, corporate, military, governmental, occult, or otherwise.
4) The question of how transgenderism effects women and their position in society.
5) The question of how it effects men, etc.
6) The question of how transgenderism overlaps with/is compatible with transhumanism.
7) The question of how children are being affected and possibly exploited by transgenderism as a social trend
8 ) The question of how transgender individuals are being discriminated against and abused in society
9) The question of class and privilege, and how transgender individuals may be themselves practicing discrimination and abuse
10) The question of whether ideology should be seen as a counter-measure or corrective to biology
11) The question of whether identity has any actual validity outside of group think and social constructs designed to control us/the life force
12) The question of social and possibly biological anomalies within a community or species
13) The question of group identity and scapegoating

And so on; like I say these are pretty much off the cuff but also the best I could dredge up at 11 at night on my way to bed. But I wanted to at least toss something in here as it seems a damn shame if a potentially constructive, even healing, shared exploration (with so many conflicting viewpoints) ends up being about constructed identities bickering over whose opinions matter more and who can get most puffed up with indignation, and so on. No offense intended to anyone by that remark, either. I'm just saying it's an awful waste of some good minds and hearts, not too mention our limited time and energy resources.

Buenas noches.

[Project Willow]

2. Everybody hates women, and everybody hates feminists even more.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know, inconceivable, right? But just look at the "peak trans" thread on this Reddit sub that now number over 600 entries: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/39m0rc/in_honor_of_1000_subscribers_we_bring_you_the/

It's my perception when I see posted here or anywhere else, issues important to women, they are elided over or vehemently opposed. It is simply a day to day fact of life.

[slomo]

2. Everybody hates women, and everybody hates feminists even more.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know, inconceivable, right? But just look at the "peak trans" thread on this Reddit sub that now number over 600 entries: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/39m0rc/in_honor_of_1000_subscribers_we_bring_you_the/

It's my perception when I see posted here or anywhere else, issues important to women, they are elided over or vehemently opposed. It is simply a day to day fact of life.

Which "women"? You? The ones who write theoretical women's studies papers? Women who are angry because they don't occupy the social position they want (in professional matters or relationship matters or both)? If my FB can be used to judge, most of the women I know either are occupied with the same political and social concerns I am, or else belong to one of the groups I just mentioned. I don't think you can speak for "women" monolithically, because in reality no such monolithic entity exists. No such monolithic entity called "men" exists either. We are all members of various smaller or larger social groups, each with their individual concerns, and most of them being made up of both men and women.

I would submit to you that the absence of interest in issues you care about is the result of your being interested in very arcane topics that most men and women, as individuals, don't want to discuss. Some of them may actually be very important topics, but the lack of interest does not really fall along gender lines.

[Project Willow]

As far as "some sort of substantive response" to AOC, perhaps you could lead the way by providing one to the latter half of the following:

It's [transgenderism] entirely based around the total denial of basic biological facts, such as sexual dimorphism in mammals, not to mention normalizing mental illness.

Baseline compassion, indeed.

May there be sincere, informed, and respectful discussion of trans politics and gender issues from here on out.

Okay, first off, there should be nothing inherently derogatory about labeling something a mental illness. Mental illness should carry no shame or stigma. Our whole culture is so off base in regards to this, it deserves a book level response.

Other than that, the statement only needs qualification, and the rest of us to willingly partake in an honest discussion. The qualification would be "mainstream", meaning the ideology that dominates media exposure and lay discussion. We should be able to discuss, agree or disagree whether there is enough legitimate science behind the concept of gendered brains, as well as the political implications of such phenomena, and similarities with historical efforts to "other" and thus eradicate various populations.

In this context, all I can issue is my opinion, which is, the science is surely lacking. There are a plethora of asserted causes of transgenerdism, and scientific inquiry is being hampered by politics, so it's difficult to find way forward. See Alice Dreger, "Galileo's Middle Finger".

It may be a mental illness, it may be an outgrowth of hyper-aggressive neo-liberal capitalist binary gender-specific marketing strategies (and backlash to second wave feminism), it may be a product of environmental estrogen mimicking substances affecting in vitro development. The point is, WE DON'T KNOW. Meanwhile, children are being hormonally medicated, and possibly sterilized, which should raise the hackles on anyone who has half a brain or half a conscience.

[slomo]

So there is something I want to say about this, and I don't know whether it belongs here or in the Jack Donovan thread. The real issue that cuts across all the filaments Guruilla has just listed above is compassion. Maybe it's because I'm becoming more Buddhist in my old age, but the reason we can't talk to each other, here to some extent, and in society to a much greater extent, is that we resist really listening to the other person and imagining what it's like to walk in their shoes. It's tempting to go down some reality tunnel and ignore everything outside (I definitely do this from time to time, we all do it), but this inability to listen is what creates all the monstrosities documented in this thread and elsewhere.

I grew up under a feminist mother (single during my formative years) who, for reasons that may be excusable given her early life experiences, lost compassion for men. She transmitted that lack of compassion for men to her children. Her gay son carried that with him until he realized it was the main barrier to the intimacy he craved, and once he worked through the issues he was able to find the love he wanted. Her straight daughter was not so lucky, to this day she still views men as the enemy, and is consequently terribly lonely. I feel bad for her, I want to tell her that if she opened up her heart and was able to see men as individual persons with the same hopes and dreams as problems as herself, there might still be time to find what she's looking for. But I begin to lose hope. She is infected with a hardness that I belive comes directly from feminism.

Race is another problem where this lack of compassion plays out. The US has a terrible history, and it makes it difficult to really see and listen at an individual level. On either side. The institutional racism against African Americans is obvious, it would be moronic to deny or downplay its effects. But consider that some of the political reaction against that racism is actually being used as a weapon against lower-class whites, which is an issue that white supremists are right to bring up (in their mostly clumsy and usually hateful way). Here's another anecdote from my own life: I'm mixed-race, but my upbringing was upper-middle class (Gentry, if you want to use the model I prefer). My partner's ancestors were entirely from the British Isles, yet his lineage is entirely working-class (Labor, if you want to use my preferred model). To look at the two of us, you would assume that he is the more "privileged" member of the couple, and I suppose he enjoys substantially more "white privilege" than do I. On the other hand, I've had access to more powerful social networks than he, access to more money, and substantially higher net worth (if you counted it separately prior to marriage). Which of us is truly more privileged? It's not so easy to determine.

What doesn't help is anger and entitlement, nor does reflexive ideology. If I am making a case against anything in this thread, it's reflexive ideology that encourages its adherents to claim entitlements over others, without ever listening to where others might be coming from.

I realize I'm speaking from a pulpit, and don't walk my talk every moment of the day. But this is a message that needs to be seen in this thread, and I guess I'm the one who's going to write it.

[slomo]

Meanwhile, children are being hormonally medicated, and possibly sterilized, which should raise the hackles on anyone who has half a brain or half a conscience.

... and at least we agree on this point.

[Project Willow]

2. Everybody hates women, and everybody hates feminists even more.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know, inconceivable, right? But just look at the "peak trans" thread on this Reddit sub that now number over 600 entries: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/39m0rc/in_honor_of_1000_subscribers_we_bring_you_the/

It's my perception when I see posted here or anywhere else, issues important to women, they are elided over or vehemently opposed. It is simply a day to day fact of life.

Which "women"? You? The ones who write theoretical women's studies papers? Women who are angry because they don't occupy the social position they want (in professional matters or relationship matters or both)? If my FB can be used to judge, most of the women I know either are occupied with the same political and social concerns I am, or else belong to one of the groups I just mentioned. I don't think you can speak for "women" monolithically, because in reality no such monolithic entity exists. No such monolithic entity called "men" exists either. We are all members of various smaller or larger social groups, each with their individual concerns, and most of them being made up of both men and women.

I would submit to you that the absence of interest in issues you care about is the result of your being interested in very arcane topics that most men and women, as individuals, don't want to discuss. Some of them may actually be very important topics, but the lack of interest does not really fall along gender lines.

Oh please, I raised legitimate concerns that women have about trans politics far up thread and two people responded, specifically Guruilla (hi!), and Luther who mentioned he had not yet considered the issues. That was the extent of it, yet this is par for the course whenever discussions occur that might center around issues concerning women, hence my perception and my comment. Look at the poll and tell me whose interests are being being represented here. I guarantee you, every woman, whether she agrees with my own particular stances or not, is battling all kinds internal and external forces in order to simply raise her voice in this venue.

And it isn't that "people" aren't interested, it's that men aren't really negatively affected, and may actually gain power from the trans movement. Meanwhile, legislation mandating access for male bodied trans women into female spaces is passing every day, and all available studies show us MTF trans exhibit male pattern violence at the same rate as non-trans males. Yeah, nothing to worry about there, totally silly and myopic on my part.

[slomo]

I guarantee you, every woman, whether she agrees with my own particular stances or not, is battling all kinds internal and external forces in order to simply raise her voice in this venue.

What's stopping her?

I'll tell you that I've received a PM from a man who felt he could not speak up in this forum for fear of the flaming he would receive. So I guess it goes both ways?

Ironically, we are pretty much in agreement on the trans issue. I have deep reservations about it, especially as a cultural force, even as I have empathy for the individuals who genuinely believe themselves to have gender identities that are at odds with their bodies. I think they're probably misguided, but it is ulimately none of my business unless they happen to be making demands upon me and my own personal space. And if they are people with whom I otherwise have common interests, I'm not going to let my personal opinion about their gender dysphoria impact my interactions with them in other areas of life.

[backtoiam]

This thread just demonstrated how unimportant it is to the whole of humanity, that about .07 percent of people on this planet, this tiny transgender business is, out of a whole planet of 7 billion people, can't decide what to do with their sexual urges is.

This thread was an intentional house bomb, and was designed to hurt the house. In my opinion the house survived the bombing, so far.

It is so damn ludicrous that a house full of intellectuals could be distracted by such bullshit, but the best thing about this thread is that nobody really gave a damn and nobody participated because they know better.

This thread was a disgrace, but chalk one up for RI for watching it with a damn yawn, which is about all it ever deserved in the first place.

[slomo]

Another thing about "male pattern violence". I keep hearing about how violent men are, and yet radical feminists display a shocking level of violent ideation towards men. And there is a concept of "violence by proxy", where women are able to wield (e.g.) the power of the state to act violently towards others. (For example, it is indeed a thing that men who are actual victims of domestic violence end up getting physically assaulted by police officers as a result of a single phone call placed by the abusing woman. It does happen, and more frequently than many people realize.)

I'm not convinced at all that women have less violent ideation than men; I think rather that because women are typically smaller and physically weaker than men, they are less directly responsible for violent acts, and so it only appears that women are less violent.

I'm sorry you hate men as a class. From what I understand of your background, you may have some good reasons for choosing that path. But your picture of men as a group does not match what I perceive as reality.

[82_28]

Willow, you might know where I won't go with this, but that is patently untrue. Men can be just as sensitive and hurt as the next gal/guy. Sometimes friendships are broken apart by selfish desires -- whatever they may be. Speaking inexorably as a man, I don't give a fuck what anyone does like was said above -- it's none of my business. Friendships last forever and if they don't you were never friends in the first place, which sucks because I suppose I have always been way too trusting that people intrinsically do the right thing for the other and by doing so, themselves. Gender issues are stupid to me because actually everyone is equal. I might draw ire from feminists because I disagree with any form of militancy or one's issue is more pressing than the other but then I will just tell them their obsessions are stupid -- just get along. It's not that difficult. Everyone has feelings. Attend to them.

I noticed the other day the female clerks at the grocery store call me sweetie. I then put myself in the male position of saying, were the roles reversed, "sweetie" to female customers. I'd get fired. As a dude you say "thanks a lot and you have a good weekend" or something. I really am not making a mountain out of a molehill, but there is a double standard. It doesn't bother me one bit by women, gay dudes what the fuck ever to be called sweetie. It's a matter of trust. I think when I bartended I did say things like "no problem hun" -- with the "hun" being very silent. Or else I would call women sisters. I have no idea. This shit is stupid. Not the thread, but I can't write all night.

[tapitsbo]

2. Everybody hates women, and everybody hates feminists even more.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know, inconceivable, right? But just look at the "peak trans" thread on this Reddit sub that now number over 600 entries: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/39m0rc/in_honor_of_1000_subscribers_we_bring_you_the/

It's my perception when I see posted here or anywhere else, issues important to women, they are elided over or vehemently opposed. It is simply a day to day fact of life.

Which "women"? You? The ones who write theoretical women's studies papers? Women who are angry because they don't occupy the social position they want (in professional matters or relationship matters or both)? If my FB can be used to judge, most of the women I know either are occupied with the same political and social concerns I am, or else belong to one of the groups I just mentioned. I don't think you can speak for "women" monolithically, because in reality no such monolithic entity exists. No such monolithic entity called "men" exists either. We are all members of various smaller or larger social groups, each with their individual concerns, and most of them being made up of both men and women.

I would submit to you that the absence of interest in issues you care about is the result of your being interested in very arcane topics that most men and women, as individuals, don't want to discuss. Some of them may actually be very important topics, but the lack of interest does not really fall along gender lines.

Oh please, I raised legitimate concerns that women have about trans politics far up thread and two people responded, specifically Guruilla (hi!), and Luther who mentioned he had not yet considered the issues. That was the extent of it, yet this is par for the course whenever discussions occur that might center around issues concerning women, hence my perception and my comment. Look at the poll and tell me whose interests are being being represented here. I guarantee you, every woman, whether she agrees with my own particular stances or not, is battling all kinds internal and external forces in order to simply raise her voice in this venue.

And it isn't that "people" aren't interested, it's that men aren't really negatively affected, and may actually gain power from the trans movement. Meanwhile, legislation mandating access for male bodied trans women into female spaces is passing every day, and all available studies show us MTF trans exhibit male pattern violence at the same rate as non-trans males. Yeah, nothing to worry about there, totally silly and myopic on my part.

While we are on this topic, do you feel that women are affected by the restrictions on talking about violence by trans men or by other women. I have had queer women tell me this is a subject they are terrified of raising, fascinatingly enough.