Let's talk Turkey

[seemslikeadream]

Heh, that's witty 4B. Interesting that this happened not only on the same day as the much-vaunted 28-page release but just as the USA and Russia were tentatively agreeing to collaborate against IS and Jabhat al-Nusra (or so they said).

I must be too witty for my own good. How was what I said witty? It's a real question. Everyone here is pro-Ataturk, right? Pro-kemalist?

yep you found us out FB we're all commies here and we love the music...party on Waynski

[FourthBase]

Huh?

I am pro-Ataturk. The Muslim world needs 100 Ataturks. Ataturk was awesome.

I'm confused about why this military coup -- if legit, if not staged/allowed by Erdogan for whatever reason -- would not be something to celebrate here. Just an anti-military reflex? Or is it the more general nothing-can-ever-possibly-be-good, everything-always-benefits-evil-capitalists reflex? Secularism is good, right?

[tapitsbo]

I've seen a lot of rhetoric that suggests Erdogan is to be welcomed as a "moderate" political leader for the Sunni world. Not sure if I believe that or even whether I'm qualified to judge such a claim. I have met a number of Turks who hate his government, though.

[0_0]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 40516.html

Conspiracy theorists are saying the attempted military coup in Turkey was faked, after President Recep Tayyip Erdogan reportedly called it “a gift from Allah”.

(...)

This immediately led many to fear that President Erdogan, who has previously been accused of persecuting critics, will use the coup as an excuse to further crack down on his opponents. Such fears are likely to be stoked by Turkish TV reports that 2,745 judges have been removed from their offices following the coup attempt.

Some observers have even begun speculating that the coup was stage-managed to give Mr Erdogan an opportunity to purge the military of opponents and increase his grip on Turkey.

[0_0]

Turkey coup: Erdogan government could restore death penalty, deputy leader warns
Hashtag #Idamistiyorum ('I want death penalty') becomes the top trend on Turkish twitter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 40391.html

[tapitsbo]

Twitter is very quick to block politically sensitive hashtags from trending. This one obviously meets with their enthusiastic approval!

[0_0]

"a disturbingly plausible theory":

I feel compelled to say, however, that I don't believe this new coup was an actual coup.

If it was a real coup officially organized by the Turkish military, it would have been swiftly and successfully completed before anyone issued any official statement. By the time a General went on TV to announce the military had taken over, they'd have every member of parliament and every cabinet official in jail.

If it was a rogue-coup organized by a small group of officers, then the rest of the military would have clamped down on it very quickly. Yet they did not. They pretty much operated completely unopposed, equipped with tanks and helicopters and fighter jets. Yet despite being unopposed, they made zero attempts to arrest cabinet and parliament members and zero attempts to communicate with the public at large. They basically just kinda marched out there with all that military hardware to do...NOTHING. They raided a bunch of news stations for theatrics, and then quietly got arrested by a severely under-equipped civilian police force that they could have almost effortlessly steamrolled through. Sorry, but I ain't buying this story.

What this really looks like is an orchestrated ploy by Erdogan himself. A staged fake-coup that was meant to fail from the beginning, with some casualties for an air of authenticity, allowing him to garner some sympathy and consolidate even more power. Now you just watch in the coming weeks and months. You're going to see Erdogan start imprisoning and executing anyone who dares criticize her. Journalists and civilians who had nothing to do with the military or any plot of coup will face his wrath. New laws will transfer even more power to the executive, completely eroding whatever little checks and balances we have left.
Those people who spilled out to the streets, on orders from Erdogan and commanded by organized broadcasts from mosque minarets, did not save democracy. They killed it. And watching it happen on live TV was such a lovely way to spend my Friday night...

more: https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/ ... ry/d5e6446

[tapitsbo]

What are the odds that we see a similar "ploy" in the USA, France, Russia after Putin is gone, etc. ?

I think high. Wesley Clark not-so-subtly commenting last night about how the coup could have been more effective brought November to mind.

Certainly a "graceful" opportunity for European politicians to begin sharing power with Islamist parties in the coming years would be during the time after a "fascist" military coup, or referendum, or election, or mass protest is quelled. It's only a matter of time.

[Sounder]

I am both happy and disappointed that the US State Department are such bumbling idiots.

Really? Turkey makes a few moves of rapprochement with Russia and we respond with 'ISIS' terrorism and green lighting of a coup executed by sloppy amateurs.

Good job idiots, that will sure convince other leaders to continue ruling through internationalist dictates, rather than turning toward more nationalistic interests fed by a feeling of needing to survive.

No really, thank you for being so stupid. But please try, try, try to hold off on the nuclear option.

I'm also open to the Erdogan faked it idea but why would Gulan folk allow themselves to be used in a sure to fail operation?

[tapitsbo]

Where's the proof that Gulen's organization was involved at all?

HRC who is allegedly close to him condemned the coup - not to say that rules out his involvement

[Sounder]

Where's the proof that Gulen's organization was involved at all?

I leave 'proofs' to the rigorous ones.

But I did note early positive reaction, on the part of the western propaganda apparatus, followed quickly by cold feet. With a fired Gulanist officer traced to as being the leader. Maybe that part is bullshit, time will tell.

[tapitsbo]

Whoever was behind the coup seems to have been heavily compromised by intelligence groups, etc. loyal to Erdogan. Or else it would have been done more competently.

[Novem5er]

In the past, military coups have brought Turkey back towards a more secular government. People are assuming that was their aim here, but without any real communication, that'd be hard to say. I have read that Erdogan has basically used the Syrian mess as a smoke screen to kill Kurds, and has gone pretty soft on ISIS and other extremist groups around their border.

"Gone pretty soft" on ISIS? He's been their main supporter and supplier and purchaser of their stolen oil!! He basically is ISIS!! Without him there would be no ISIS!

Ah, that jogs my memory. My "gone soft" comment was mostly that I remember hearing and reading about some link between Erdogan and ISIS, but not remembering the specifics. I remember now that his government was accused the other month of being the primary purchaser of ISIS oil.

So it looks like it's over and the coup failed? From BBC this morning:

Summary

-Turkey PM Binali Yildirim says coup attempt by faction of armed forces is over
-More than 160 people are dead, 1,440 are wounded and some 2,800 soldiers are under arrest, says Mr Yildirim
-More than 2,700 judges are fired for alleged links to coup attempt - warrants are out for 140 Supreme Court members
-It follows reports of explosions and gunfire in Ankara and Istanbul overnight as the coup unfolded
-President Erdogan made a televised address, urging opposition to the uprising and calling it "treason"

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-36811357

[seemslikeadream]

Analysis: Why the Turkey coup failed and what's likely to come next
Erdogan launches purge of armed forces after coup attempt crushed In Pictures: Attempted Turkish military coup

The failed coup is not likely to change Turkey-Israel relations, but Jerusalem would not have shed a tear had Erdogan been ousted.

[JackRiddler]

All I gather so far: The "coup" issued a brief statement sounding like an Ataturk nationalist restoration. No leaders appeared on TV. All you saw was Erdogan and he had no trouble returning. Crowds went out and killed soldiers, one was beheaded on video. [CORRECTION: Video may not be the case, there is a picture making the rounds.] And now it's also being blamed on Gülen, which makes no sense. 3,000 arrests of military and police and summary firing of 2700 judges makes an astonishingly well-researched and organized "counter-coup" within hours. Obviously the judges were on a list prepared long ago. Calls for death penalty. Erdogan in total power, it seems. Extreme suspicion about what happened seems warranted. (Can't help adding the inevitable feeling that it will be uninvolved Kurdish people massacred and blamed as has been usual.)

Turkish FM had signalled a line change on Syria earlier this week.

I don't see an American angle that makes sense yet.

Probably not significant, but interesting that Erdogan was in Berlin. [CORRECTION: NO HE WAS NOT. Supposedly at vacation house in Marmaris.]

Speculation about who were the eight officers who landed their helicopter in Greece and were taken into custody there.

Kevin Ovenden, I usually like:

About 90 minutes into the deployment of tanks in Istanbul and Ankara there were the two conflicting declarations. One from the Turkish prime minister, the other the statement from the coup-plotters read out under duress by a newscaster on the state broadcaster.

It is around that time that I for one expected to see a uniformed man with the requisite amount of gold braid appear on screen as the face of the coup and announce that political power had been seized.

That didn't happen. As Erdogan's face appeared on Face Time appealing for people to go into the streets, the coup remained faceless.

No Colonel Papadopoulos. No General Evren.

Just a hiatus for some hours, in which soldiers in their barracks (there is a large conscript army) and pilots at their bases were confronted with the face of Erdogan and people thronging the streets on the one hand, and a statement from an unidentified "Peace Council" on the other.