The Mandela Effect (Disappearing Braces in Moonraker)

[Burnt Hill]

Isn't The Mandela Effect sort of a version of the Telephone Game being played out in real life?

[Belligerent Savant]

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Not quite; the telephone game transfers information from one 'sensory absorber' (i.e. human) to another with quality/accuracy of content diminishing incrementally at each 'junction point'. The telephone game is also typically played as a single/isolated event with all participants together in the same room (though of course the details/methods may vary).

This "Mandela Effect", on the other hand, implies no such direct transfer of information. Using the Moonraker example, individuals observed the 'braces' scene in the film at disparate times over the course of many years. Rarely is this scene discussed among those who watched the film (before it became a popular example for this supposed 'effect'), as it was irrelevant to the plot. Yet, when the specific scene is mentioned, MANY (apparently) vividly/immediately recall the girl wearing braces independent of any other viewer's observation, but in fact (poor word choice) she isn't.
Now, one can argue that some who claim the girl wore braces are saying it because someone else mentioned it when the topic was raised, and the mere mention 'implanted' the vision of braces into their recollection of the scene. They didn't ACTUALLY remember the braces.

But I did. And I asked the better half about that scene without suggesting anything about her braces (she also saw the movie numerous times as a child/teen), and she replied that she ALSO remembered the girl wearing braces in the scene.

The mind can 'auto-correct'; the scene makes more sense with braces, therefore braces is what the mind recalls, regardless of what is evident upon further analysis.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is a reason 'eyewitness testimony' is often unreliable as a sole source of evidence gathering.
(the mind also corrects for certain spatial/color anomalies as well, etc etc).

I'll upload the content later tonight.

[mentalgongfu2]

I hadn't seen the movie before this thread and honestly didn't realize until I had read a lot of posts that this was in reference to an old James Bond film. It took me a while, too, to realize the braces being discussed were the teeth kind and not the stability-for-the-legs Forest Gump kind. I still haven't seen the movie, actually, just watched the clip posted in the early pages of the scene in question, in its 'controversial' braces-free form. .I had no preconceptions other than reading posts here from people who said they remembered braces and the scene didn't work without them. FWIW, when I finally watched the clip, it seemed to work just fine for me. Granted, I didn't have a lot of context, but it's an old weird guy smiling at a young person, who smiles back, free of judgment. They share a human moment. Maybe there's some plot element I don't understand that changes this besides Jaws having metal teeth, but I didn't feel it watching the clip. I offer this anecdote for scientific purposes, since it seems most contributors had an expectation to see braces. I actually had the opposite expectation, since the subject of the thread was missing braces on Dolly.

Maybe my timeline is different for never having seen the movie.
Mayhap I'm on the 'never saw Moonraker' timeline,' so the braces aren't relevant until now.

I find it intriguing to entertain such a notion, but mostly I'm with Jack and Belligerent Savant on this particular example - it's likely a trick of memory or suggestion and nothing more.

That said,
I won't let such a conclusion disabuse me of the concept of alternate dimensions or timelines that could bleed into ours. Something about the idea makes sense to me for a lot of reasons. Maybe that's why this Moonraker example is so compelling to many here. But I think it's telling that PK Dick wrote about alternates where big things happened, like the Axis Powers winning WWII, while the "Mandela effect" stuff is focused on the proper spelling of Bernst*in Bears and whether a character in a 37-year old Bond film was wearing braces, or whether "The" or "A" preceded the word "Vampire" in a book title. I think trivial is a fair word to describe such preoccupations, since they don't actually change anything.

It's not like a change in Moonraker would alter the course of world events, would it? Unless in some hard-to-process butterfly effect sort of way.
Upon reflection, and because I'm better at asking questions than answering them, I guess one could imagine where such trivial differences were not the cause, but a subtle sign of some larger reality-adjustment that had taken place, but that would just make me wonder why we can't see the larger changes. Why would these bleed through? Interesting thought experiment, but I just find myself balking at the popular examples. And this from someone who has had some weird experiences of his own with Time. For my money, Rick and Morty is better on the science, psychology and philosophy of alternate timelines than the pseudo-seriousness of "the Mandela effect." Mandela's imagined death is actually the only serious example in the pantheon, and others have already pointed out, could easily be a confusion from other events in the 80s. Personally, I think the term is popular because people (in the West) read it like "mandala" and imagine a mystic connection to India, where Gods and Spirits still live in the open...

[Belligerent Savant]

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Alright, prepare to be underwhelmed.

(Disclaimer: I didn't have time to go through some 'conversion' process from VHS to digital -- I may do that sometime in the future -- so in the interest of getting something uploaded tonight, I simply recorded the scene from my somewhat sub-par blackberry phone camera. The footage itself is also not very crisp, at all. Don't expect anything near HD when recording VHS quality from a cameraphone.)

First, a snapshot of the VHS tape itself as Exhibit A of the source of this crappy video clip -- that's my father's handwriting:



And now, the infamous scene. One noteworthy (or not) observation -- even taking into account the mediocre quality of the footage -- is the seemingly odd 'black hole' in her mouth when the camera first cuts to her face, along with an uncannily-timed flash of white static, just before her teeth are clearly seen. It briefly had me considering some bizarre sorcery... but surely it's just my imagination:

(Don't know how to embed these properly -- if a mod is up and around, by all means edit on my behalf)

http://sendvid.com/leh23o0a

As a bonus, albeit in similarly crappy quality, enjoy these nostalgic 80s-era commercials (sponsored by the U.S. Military, Lowenbrau, and ColecoVision!):

https://sendvid.com/4jgmxfsv

[tron]

embedded psionics with a shelf life?

[Spiro C. Thiery]

This "Mandela Effect", on the other hand, implies no such direct transfer of information. Using the Moonraker example, individuals observed the 'braces' scene in the film at disparate times over the course of many years. Rarely is this scene discussed among those who watched the film (before it became a popular example for this supposed 'effect'), as it was irrelevant to the plot. Yet, when the specific scene is mentioned, MANY (apparently) vividly/immediately recall the girl wearing braces independent of any other viewer's observation, but in fact (poor word choice) she isn't.

Except this has not been adequately established as being the case.

Now, one can argue that some who claim the girl wore braces are saying it because someone else mentioned it when the topic was raised, and the mere mention 'implanted' the vision of braces into their recollection of the scene. They didn't ACTUALLY remember the braces.

Not only can one argue it, but up to now there's not much evidence that it is otherwise.

But I did. And I asked the better half about that scene without suggesting anything about her braces (she also saw the movie numerous times as a child/teen), and she replied that she ALSO remembered the girl wearing braces in the scene.

Yours is the only instance I have seen so far that makes this claim. I give you the benefit of the doubt, as you have no reason not to be honest, especially since you're not advocating for the effect's being anything other than flawed memory. Still, at this point, I am disinclined to judge someone else's chiming in to say they, too, remembered it without the suggestion, as the memory of what prompted the recall would have been tainted already.

In my opinion, The Mandela Effect is not a thing, but a claim to be a thing. There has been quite simply no documented control for this "independent" realization of misremembering (or whatever claim is made in each case). "Yeah, I thought it was O-S-C-A-R M-E-Y-E-R, too!" just doesn't cut it, and neither does the reply, "But no one told me they thought that first," when uttered in response to rigorous questioning.

For the record: I hate scientism and am sceptical of our emerging celebrity scientist priestly class. Still. This thing is so flawed on its surface I that I am surprised it has got so much attention on this board. Even in cases where more than one person is independently wrong about something, for every example cited, there is a simple explanation. Like:

The mind can 'auto-correct'; the scene makes more sense with braces, therefore braces is what the mind recalls, regardless of what is evident upon further analysis.

As well as:
Meyer being more commonly known spelling for the pronunciation.
Jiffy being conflated with Skippy.
-stein seeming to be the obvious ending.
People wanting to believe shit.

[Belligerent Savant]

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I tend to agree with most of the above.

However:

But I did. And I asked the better half about that scene without suggesting anything about her braces (she also saw the movie numerous times as a child/teen), and she replied that she ALSO remembered the girl wearing braces in the scene.

Yours is the only instance I have seen so far that makes this claim. I give you the benefit of the doubt, as you have no reason not to be honest, especially since you're not advocating for the effect's being anything other than flawed memory. Still, at this point, I am disinclined to judge someone else's chiming in to say they, too, remembered it without the suggestion, as the memory of what prompted the recall would have been tainted already.

I doubt my example would constitute the "only" instance of this, but it would be difficult conduct a poll to gauge the extent of it, in any event.
When I asked my companion about the scene in question, I offered NO mention of any braces. She had zero prior awareness of this 'Mandela Effect' (she avoids the internet, generally -- a rare bird). I simply asked her to recount the scene and as she relayed her recollection of it she specifically mentioned the girl wearing braces in that scene, to imply a 'connection' with the Jaws character, etc. (as well as provide another kitschy humor element of the film -- a common trait in most/all the Roger Moore Bond films).

[JackRiddler]

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What are you arguing about, Spiro and BS?

There is no doubt that

a - people often revise their memory of things, on their own, to fit the way these things "should have" been (and it's obvious how this scene "should have been," there's probably a name for the trope of potential lovers suddenly recognizing a common quality in each other).

b - people also often remember or see things differently than these things actually were, due to the effects of suggestion or framing.

So you're both right!

Also, people revise memories according to personal bias or emotional makeup as they would have preferred them to have been, or as they feared them to have been, etc.

Also, every memory when recalled becomes layered with the recollection of the memory, and the context of that recollection, ad infinitum.

Yet people often remember salient details of experiences more or less exactly as they were. (Salient details; total experience cannot be fully recreated, presumably.)

Also, through contemplation, suggestion, framing, or stimulus (such as notes or a photo), people may actually recall details they had forgotten or not really noticed initially - and even often do so correctly!

Also, some people usually remember things better than others.

There you go! Everyone's in.

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[Belligerent Savant]

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Succinctly summarized, JR.

You've missed your calling as a referee.

[DrEvil]

Memory is a funny thing. One example that really got my attention lately was an interview with a Norwegian dude who saw the German gunman open fire on the sidewalk in the recent shooting there.

Right after the shooting started he legged it for his hotel, and it wasn't until he saw the clip of the guy shooting on the news that he realized he'd gotten the gunman and a victim mixed up in his memory. He was convinced the gunman had a striped sweater from right after the shooting until he saw the video.

This is also why I'm generally skeptical of all the mysterious second shooters who are almost always reported when something happens, and then never seen or heard from again when things calm down.
Our memories aren't trustworthy, and I'm always baffled by people who routinely dismiss everything coming from an official source as bogus, and at the same time hold up witness accounts from twitter, youtube, facebook etc. as the gold standard of truth.

[dada]

Can any of these devices take me to a timeline where both "Hillary shimmy" and "Superbowl shuffle" cease to exist? It's OK if there is still "Ninja rap."

They could.

But it's more fun to invade timelines where the things you don't like do exist, and blow them up. Dave Khan will invade timelines, if you ask him nicely. He commands a fleet of islands in space, that also happen to be aircraft carriers.

Where did Dave get the fleet? We were going to use them to flood a timeline one time, but we found a better way to do it, so we gave them to him as a present.

And the Ninja in our party says 'thanks a lot' for reminding us about Ninja Rap. He's being sarcastic. We're all making fun of him now.

dada, im on the floor, like just fell off my chair, you should seriously be a not serious writer, take my money already.......

Thanks, knocking people outta their seat is the effect I'm going for! Well, one of the effects I'm going for.

I shop my stuff around. Got a bunch of rejection letters, just like a real writer. Maybe one day I'll get lucky. I don't know. I like to write. I don't like the 'writer scene.' Thinking maybe I'll self-publish. Save up some dough, do it right. Viral marketing push and all that bullshit. Get respected names to write, 'I love this book' on the back jacket.

I really do appreciate the response. Inspires me to keep trying to get it out there.

Oh, and dada, your ship sounds fab but can you create transwarp conduits or are you stuck outside subspace?

Jarvisgates are like transwarp conduits, but instantaneous. So we can create those, yeah.

We do time, space, timeline travel and more. We get around.

One time a timeline split off sort of by accident, and we were on two timelines at the same time. I had to turn my dreams into lucent kitty beams to create a third timeline, and run it in between to stabilize them. If I hadn't done that, the space between the two timelines would've compressed. We'd all have gotten the bends and then popped.

[Spiro C. Thiery]

What are you arguing about, Spiro and BS?

I hadn't imagined we were arguing -- though I guess my tone can skew contentious -- was only keen to draw a starker distinction insofar as it relates to the source and cases of the theory of the effect, which is not well documented, to say the least. That is, all theory, zero effect.

Also, every memory when recalled becomes layered with the recollection of the memory, and the context of that recollection, ad infinitum.

As I understand it, layered as magnetic tape, thereby effectively overwritten. Though I do wonder about the empirical evidence this idea is based on.

The fascinating thing to me, that this thread touches on, is Robert Anton Wilson's references to each of us living in our own "reality tunnel". As such, we are living and breeding parallel universes in constant bleed into one another. I'm not sure there need be separate material spaces for this to function; we are, each of us, constantly splitting from each other's and our own time lines without ever leaving this physical plane.

[divideandconquer]

Again, maybe I'm missing something here, but I think it's very convenient that these divergences, misremembrances, discrepancies that supposedly result from parallel universes constantly bleeding into one another are always of so little consequence that they never seem to interfere with or disrupt the dynamic flow of cause and effect, of routine, of daily life to any large degree.

[JackRiddler]

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Succinctly summarized, JR.

You've missed your calling as a referee.

I ran for Kim Jong Il of the Board, but they didn't let me.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37667

Bonus song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyLwNmJ5jCo


Ooh! The YT followup is just as good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3F2y2hRP4o

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[guruilla]

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And now, the infamous scene. One noteworthy (or not) observation -- even taking into account the mediocre quality of the footage -- is the seemingly odd 'black hole' in her mouth when the camera first cuts to her face, along with an uncannily-timed flash of white static, just before her teeth are clearly seen. It briefly had me considering some bizarre sorcery... but surely it's just my imagination:

That black hole is quite eerie. I am not sure how notable it would have been without the context of, "Wait, here it comes, she's going to smile .... Aaargggh!" But in that context, it is quite scifi.

I am stumped by this and there isn't anything else to be. Admittedly it's not as if I had thought about those supposed braces in almost four decades, if I ever did. I wish someone had just sent me a clip of this scene without saying why, so I'd know if it would have struck me as incongruous, then I'd feel like I could say for sure that something besides memory plasticity & suggestion was at work.

The whole unreliability of memory question is such a thorny one, what with FMS and Loftus type experts pushing this model for distinctly suspect reasons. (There is even a teaching now that alien/inter-dimensional beings are implanting false memories of trauma in us in order to control us, a storyline Peter Watts developed in one of his recent books.)

There is beyond any doubt, in my view, such a thing as body memory (affect) and it's this that is the source of trauma, memories that can't be mentally or emotionally assimilated/processed and so get trapped in one part of the body. On the other hand, most memories, later in life at least, get converted into aural-visual data and then, by talking and thinking about them (re-membering them), they are effectively converted into language files.

It's these I think that are inherently unreliable (divorced from original affect/experience) and that can be tampered with. The matrix is made of code, and once our own memories have been encoded by/into/as our own minds, they essentially belong to the matrix.

This still doesn't explain why Dolly's braces disappeared, of all things. But maybe it gives some context to the whole question or alternate timelines, reality tunnels, etc, etc....