Worst conspiracy theory ever.

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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby brekin » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:18 pm

Heaven Swan wrote:SLAD wrote:
I have a theory about some of the backlash but I will not go into deal at this point

Oh please! No need to name names. I want to understand possible motivations.
I believed that misogyny motivated a lot of the opposition and hatred for Hillary (from the left), but this goes way beyond Hillary. I guess each individual has their own motivations, but there must be some common themes.


A few guesses.
I think a lot of people who saw any aspersions made against Russia as a return to Cold War mentality, or worse.
If you look at the threads, basically you wanted WWIII if you think Russian intelligence, gov or Putin did anything malicious, even though there are numerous threads before hand detailing numerous examples of them doing such before. Again, forget if you actually like Russia the country, culture, arts, or people. You got chunked as a rabid neo-John Bircher wanting to ride in on the lead tank with Killary. It was seen as regressive to consider and criticize Russia for possibly meddling in a democratic election, although it actually would be regressive to not safeguard and investigate foreign government influencing or tampering with the election. Categorical thinking obliterates nuance.

Also, many progressives still seem to have a sentimentality screen when it comes to things Russian. And even though Communists were in the vanguard of the methods of aggressively disseminating and seeding a openly globalist agenda through subterfuge, espionage, revolution, assassination, war, etc and Russia still is a huge aggressive expansive super power- Russia seems to not get lumped in with the InfoWars-ish & Trump anti- "Globablist" agenda. Somehow Putin and Russia is the nice sleeping superpower bear that only reacts out of provocations by the West.

Further, I think Trump and Putin somehow capitalized on something like "ultimate outsider redeemer" status, appearing to be outside the established power structure. It is like Trump and Putin are across the street from the Bilderberg Group in a car staking it out. Any criticism against either of them, and their ties to each other and the very corruption they bewail, is seen by an attempt by the corrupt establishment, or assisting ignorant rubes, to continue the injustice. They are the ultimate cop-buddy movie.



There was probably also some male romanticism/panic which Trump/Putin, both tickled and assuaged. Trumputin represents the horde chieftain, who has gotten to the top supposedly gladiator style. So his position, status, power, and subjugation of others, for many, male and female, is seen as more legitimate- than those who have had to compromise, communicate, play the game, abide by societies rules and norms. His power supposedly comes from "might is right" and so the only way to take down the grey back king is through illegitimate trickery, collective siege, backroom dagger to Caesar gossip, etc. That is why these tough guys spend so much time whining about (or wacking) journalists and critics. Because they are in the right, and believe they have deservedly battled to the top, it is only through undeserving lies, deception and fabrications that they can be taken down. So any snide critique or judgement has to be met with overwhelming force.

Image



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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:25 pm

Heaven Swan wrote:That leaves leftist RI posters, internet columnists and lot's of Pacifica radio hosts who supposedly read and analyze news but made fun and ridiculed those who believed Russian meddling was possible or probable..



My objection to the "Russian meddling" theme has been with the vague notion that "Russia" actually changed votes—"hacked the election"—to alter the outcome of the U.S. election. What I find even more preposterous is the fact that a majority of Democrats apparently believe that's what happened.

I glanced back at the OP and see it's all about Russian money. That is no longer even a 'theory'; it's quite real and Trump's swimming in it.
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby brekin » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:11 pm

Elvis » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:25 pm wrote:
Heaven Swan wrote:That leaves leftist RI posters, internet columnists and lot's of Pacifica radio hosts who supposedly read and analyze news but made fun and ridiculed those who believed Russian meddling was possible or probable..

My objection to the "Russian meddling" theme has been with the vague notion that "Russia" actually changed votes—"hacked the election"—to alter the outcome of the U.S. election. What I find even more preposterous is the fact that a majority of Democrats apparently believe that's what happened.
I glanced back at the OP and see it's all about Russian money. That is no longer even a 'theory'; it's quite real and Trump's swimming in it.


Yes, there needs to be clarification between influenced, meddled, tinkered, with "the election" and changing/hacking the "election results".

The first was pretty much assumed long before November, the latter much more hard to believe or prove. And honestly I would be surprised if true and able to be proved, ever would allowed to come to light, even by establishment Democrats. If Trump had lost in November, he would have pursued the vote tampering quest hard for sure, which would probably be as undermining to American institutions as his presidency has been.
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:47 pm

I've been under the impression that the supposed hacking into 3 Michigan districts did occur, but no fiddling took place, just that those computers had been only accessed and voting had not been altered in any way. This was supposedly blamed on Russians, along with the hacking of the DNC.
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby 0_0 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:05 am

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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby Heaven Swan » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:11 am

Another leftist I'm baffled by is Glen Greenwald, who was part of the chorus of left-leaning journalists and pundits who scoffed at the idea that Russia meddled or hacked into the US election. Then when Reality L. Winner provided proof, she was, whoops, arrested because of carelessness by his company the Intercept. (He is half owner, I believe)


Iamwhomiam » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:47 pm wrote:I've been under the impression that the supposed hacking into 3 Michigan districts did occur, but no fiddling took place, just that those computers had been only accessed and voting had not been altered in any way. This was supposedly blamed on Russians, along with the hacking of the DNC.


Russian agents hacked US voting system manufacturer before US election – report

(excerpt)
The hacking of senior Democrats’ email accounts during the campaign has been well chronicled, but vote-counting was thought to have been unaffected, despite concerted Russian efforts to penetrate it.

Russian military intelligence carried out a cyber-attack on at least one US voting software supplier and sent spear-phishing emails to more than a hundred local election officials days before the poll, the Intercept reported on Monday.

Image

NSA contractor Reality Winner accused of leaking file on Russia election hacking
The website, which specialises in national security issues, said the NSA document had been provided to it anonymously and independently authenticated. “The report, dated May 5, 2017, is the most detailed US government account of Russian interference in the election that has yet come to light,” it continued.

Read more at:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... nsa-report
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby semper occultus » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:07 am

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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:13 pm

.
So it's the Russians again, huh? The assigned enemy de l'année? There was a time, after the wittily-named Cold War, when referring to the Russians as an enemy was considered passé.

No longer, clearly.

Let's all follow official channel (media/govt) buzzing and deflect away from the regular vote tampering/rigging/hacking/manipulations carried out by our pals at the letter agencies, both domestically and abroad (among other acts of savagery in the name of 'Security' [control]).

Witting or unwittingly playin' along with the narratives, are we? Carry on.

(Also: The shock and horror that votes are tampered with! The sanctity of our democratic process, nay, democracy as we know it, is at stake! ...do I have that right? our democratic process? Repeat that without a hint of sarcasm, with a straight face. Go ahead -- try it. Convince yourself. Or perhaps you already have.)
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby brekin » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:09 pm

Belligerent Savant wrote:.
So it's the Russians again, huh? The assigned enemy de l'année? There was a time, after the wittily-named Cold War, when referring to the Russians as an enemy was considered passé.
No longer, clearly.
Let's all follow official channel (media/govt) buzzing and deflect away from the regular vote tampering/rigging/hacking/manipulations carried out by our pals at the letter agencies, both domestically and abroad (among other acts of savagery in the name of 'Security' [control]).
Witting or unwittingly playin' along with the narratives, are we? Carry on.
(Also: The shock and horror that votes are tampered with! The sanctity of our democratic process, nay, democracy as we know it, is at stake! ...do I have that right? our democratic process? Repeat that without a hint of sarcasm, with a straight face. Go ahead -- try it. Convince yourself. Or perhaps you already have.)


Here, I made this for you.

brekin » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:18 pm wrote:A few guesses.
I think a lot of people who saw any aspersions made against Russia as a return to Cold War mentality, or worse.
If you look at the threads, basically you wanted WWIII if you think Russian intelligence, gov or Putin did anything malicious, even though there are numerous threads before hand detailing numerous examples of them doing such before. Again, forget if you actually like Russia the country, culture, arts, or people. You got chunked as a rabid neo-John Bircher wanting to ride in on the lead tank with Killary. It was seen as regressive to consider and criticize Russia for possibly meddling in a democratic election, although it actually would be regressive to not safeguard and investigate foreign government influencing or tampering with the election. Categorical thinking obliterates nuance.

Also, many progressives still seem to have a sentimentality screen when it comes to things Russian. And even though Communists were in the vanguard of the methods of aggressively disseminating and seeding a openly globalist agenda through subterfuge, espionage, revolution, assassination, war, etc and Russia still is a huge aggressive expansive super power- Russia seems to not get lumped in with the InfoWars-ish & Trump anti- "Globablist" agenda. Somehow Putin and Russia is the nice sleeping superpower bear that only reacts out of provocations by the West.


Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone




They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique
And a swinging hot spot

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

They took all the trees
Put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Hey farmer farmer
Put away that DDT now
Give me spots on my apples
But leave me the birds and the bees
Please!

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Late last night
I heard the screen door slam
And a big yellow taxi
Took away my old man

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby SonicG » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:43 pm

It is possible to:
- Not consider oneself to be neither liberal nor progressive
- Know full well that the US has a long long varied varied history of meddling that goes way beyond vote rigging to actually ousting democratically elected governments.
- Understand that Russia is basically surrounded by US/NATO bases and troops
- Know what a propaganda machine CNN, NYT etc. have been for long these many years
- Be extremely interested in following the stories surrounding Trump and Russia, and the myriad of decay and decadence of the Ruling Class...
These are not contradictory. It is also possible to see as utter ridiculous the idea a cabal of Obama-Clinton people want war with Russia to satisfy their bloodlust...Continued tensions with Russia and China, and proxy wars all around the globe benefit the arms manufacturers. Full stop. If they want to continue the escalation of nuclear and conventional weapons, it will continue. The intelligence agencies, obviously, also want this but to think that Trump or anyone is going to be able to reduce arms proliferation even an inch, is utterly absurd. Trump has no will, desire or plan to de-escalate anything. The quid pro quo of sanctions for e-mail release seems so obvious just by looking at the raw information, MS media aside...
This is all headed for chaos, it is inevitable...Whether Trump manages to stay in office, implementing Mercer-Koch policy and a terribly weak foreign policy, getting lead by the nose by Russia and China...OR he is ousted and all of the corresponding backlash and mayhem...
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby Burnt Hill » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:51 pm

SonicG » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:43 pm wrote:It is possible to:
- Not consider oneself to be neither liberal nor progressive
- Know full well that the US has a long long varied varied history of meddling that goes way beyond vote rigging to actually ousting democratically elected governments.
- Understand that Russia is basically surrounded by US/NATO bases and troops
- Know what a propaganda machine CNN, NYT etc. have been for long these many years
- Be extremely interested in following the stories surrounding Trump and Russia, and the myriad of decay and decadence of the Ruling Class...
These are not contradictory. It is also possible to see as utter ridiculous the idea a cabal of Obama-Clinton people want war with Russia to satisfy their bloodlust...Continued tensions with Russia and China, and proxy wars all around the globe benefit the arms manufacturers. Full stop. If they want to continue the escalation of nuclear and conventional weapons, it will continue. The intelligence agencies, obviously, also want this but to think that Trump or anyone is going to be able to reduce arms proliferation even an inch, is utterly absurd. Trump has no will, desire or plan to de-escalate anything. The quid pro quo of sanctions for e-mail release seems so obvious just by looking at the raw information, MS media aside...
This is all headed for chaos, it is inevitable...Whether Trump manages to stay in office, implementing Mercer-Koch policy and a terribly weak foreign policy, getting lead by the nose by Russia and China...OR he is ousted and all of the corresponding backlash and mayhem...


Ha! Your common sense is weak against my ideology!
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby liminalOyster » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:01 am

SonicG » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:43 am wrote:It is possible to:
- Not consider oneself to be neither liberal nor progressive
- Know full well that the US has a long long varied varied history of meddling that goes way beyond vote rigging to actually ousting democratically elected governments.
- Understand that Russia is basically surrounded by US/NATO bases and troops
- Know what a propaganda machine CNN, NYT etc. have been for long these many years
- Be extremely interested in following the stories surrounding Trump and Russia, and the myriad of decay and decadence of the Ruling Class...
These are not contradictory. It is also possible to see as utter ridiculous the idea a cabal of Obama-Clinton people want war with Russia to satisfy their bloodlust...Continued tensions with Russia and China, and proxy wars all around the globe benefit the arms manufacturers. Full stop. If they want to continue the escalation of nuclear and conventional weapons, it will continue. The intelligence agencies, obviously, also want this but to think that Trump or anyone is going to be able to reduce arms proliferation even an inch, is utterly absurd. Trump has no will, desire or plan to de-escalate anything. The quid pro quo of sanctions for e-mail release seems so obvious just by looking at the raw information, MS media aside...
This is all headed for chaos, it is inevitable...Whether Trump manages to stay in office, implementing Mercer-Koch policy and a terribly weak foreign policy, getting lead by the nose by Russia and China...OR he is ousted and all of the corresponding backlash and mayhem...


Thank you. I will add to this list:

- Have supported Bernie vigorously even as someone with (at least passable) geopolitical sophistication due to the impression that a sea-change, however imperfect, did seem to become feasible under his flawed leadership. If only *conceptually,* we came within striking distance of the idea that it was plausible that Bill McKibben could head the EPA.
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby Project Willow » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:31 am

Heaven Swan » 12 Jul 2017 04:37 wrote:Fascinating stuff.

I'm American, but perhaps because I spent long periods of time outside of the country I am constantly baffled and stumped by American behavior.

Of the Russians I know, most love Trump, some don't like or support him, but all believed that Russia had meddled in the election. Realism prevails.

What's going on with Americans? It's obvious why Trump supporters and sympathizers were blowing smoke in everyone's eyes but what about all the leftists that made fun of anyone who believed Russia would do such a thing?

The people I know who fall into this category are Bernie supporters who don't analyze world politics or read news much and are motivated by emotions.

That leaves leftist RI posters, internet columnists and lot's of Pacifica radio hosts who supposedly read and analyze news but made fun and ridiculed those who believed Russian meddling was possible or probable..

I've asked this before and got crickets but in the interests of understanding, any insight on what was going on in your/their heads would be appreciated.


Nothing coming out about Russia in the mainstream comes anywhere close to the election fraud, systemic legal and illegal bribery, organized crime and violence in our political system that independent researchers have been documenting for decades. If you aren't aware of this history, if you have a blind eye towards the corruption of one set of politicians because of ideological beliefs, of course reactions on the left won't make sense.

Why Russia, why now? The oil barons and their bankers are at war over the global energy market and its base currency. Russia is a threat to US dominance, and therefore profits. Trump represents some American interests whose investments wouldn't suffer so much if the BRIC states prevail (Exxon). This is intolerable to the establishment oligarchs, so their servant, the Deep State, is busy getting all of you worked up so they can sort out this economic conflict with more blood in the ME. In reality, no one who isn't an oligarch, or a hyping mad imperialist, has a direct stake in the conflict unless it goes terribly awry, or you live in a war zone, or your kid succumbs to the mind control and goes off to die in one of these rich man's wars. Meanwhile, nearly two decades later, nobody questions the absurdity of voting on electronic machines, which have been hacked to rig the vote since day one, by Americans. If your multi-billion dollar global enterprise is dependent upon the kneecapping might of the largest and most advanced military in history, are you going to let the proles threaten your foreign policy through some antiquated mechanism like voting? Of course not, yet practically everyone still expects some politician to save us.

The masses are pawns dutifully following their programmed media programming, over what to get upset about, and/or decrying the symbols of problems while blinded to actual problems. It is patently and absurdly ridiculous, to be so enthralled to and manipulated by power, but it's always been this way with humans, has it not?
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:28 am

Here it is real simple to me

> Bernie Sanders, to the shock of the corporate Dem establishment galvanized young people
> Hillary Clinton, the annointed one, and the DNC didnt like this and colluded to cheat Bernie
> Russian hackers exposed Clinton and DNC's fucking over of Bernie
> THEREFORE RUSSIA ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HILLARY LOSING! RRrrrrrEEEee!

Even the "SMOKING GUN!" news of Donnie Trump Jr meeting with a Russian lawyer over Oppo dirt was under the pretense of finding dirt on Hillary colluding with the Russians(and MUCH is documented on the Clintons colluding with Kazakstan and Ukraine...but ya wont see the Atlantic or Huffpo digging dirt on that)

It's as if the Keith Olbermanns, Morning Joes, CNN's, Colberts, John Olivers, and New York Times of the world somehow forget all this. Just like the smug smarmy "just install Hillary" vibe of the Clinton campaign
rubbed a lot of left leaning people the wrong way...the obsessive "TRUMP RUSSIA TRUMP RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA" and "Kill Trump" 24-7 media and twitter cycle is rubbing even some
people on the left the wrong way

As this 1990 Kids in the Hall sketch is literally what much of the left and corporate media sounds like(ie: crazed paranoid 1950s communists behind every corner folks)
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Re: Worst conspiracy theory ever.

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:34 am

"Russian hacking of 2016" = in reality: Corporate Democrat establishment who assumed Hillary would win, first didn't think a firebrand old man progressive would
win over teens and college kids in a way that even Obama didnt and 2) that a goofy ass 80s celebrity turned 2000's era WWF wrestling/NBC reality show star
would bulldoze and meme his way into even the most fortified of midwest and southwest/southeast "Blue Walls".
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