JackRiddler » 07 Jan 2021 18:58 wrote:Yeah, stickdog, your master narrative is entirely possible but plausibility is an insufficient standard of proof.
We have what's in front of us. There's no way of denying it. A fascist mob, organized by fascist groups and invited to Washington by the president, then incited and dispatched by him to seize the Capitol so as to stop the procedure by which he is to be removed from power. That's what you know. Denying or trivializing that is a different kind of patsydom. Also, it pisses people off because we can all see it.
We also know the predictable response by the old and new stewards of the state. You're not going to connect that to Trump as an actor playing a role in a larger kayfabe script, as plausible as it is. It is not going to be proven. It is not going to be an effective argument for fighting against the predictable moves by the state to turn this into the new enabling act for repression.
OK, I concede that. So do you want me to join the entire MSM chorus and its "liberal" cheerleaders now welcoming, even begging for, further Big Tech censorship and a new, far more authoritarian and restrictive "Patriot" Act aimed at "fighting fascism"?
I'm rejecting the underlying framework. Power isn't a static structure.
The Rove quote reminds me of Bob, "the power elite is me and my friends." Not sure it proves or disproves anything here.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
stickdog99 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:48 pm wrote:OK, I concede that. So do you want me to join the entire MSM chorus and its "liberal" cheerleaders now welcoming, even begging for, further Big Tech censorship and a new, far more authoritarian and restrictive "Patriot" Act aimed at "fighting fascism"?
No, obviously. Would you not find that question insulting?
But there's going to be no fighting the censorship and rise in statist repression by advancing unproveable scenarios on sheer plausibility. We had our one shot at that to start this century, and we blew it. Even though there are so many aspects of this fascist mob riot that look scripted, and even though the aftermath is likely to run an extremely predictable course (i.e., it was easy to figure out the "benefits" in advance). If Trump doesn't get prosecuted, it will be an indicator. Still nothing we can use as a weapon.
Standing on principle, boring and old and weak as it is, is about all there is to fight it.
.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.
To Justice my maker from on high did incline: I am by virtue of its might divine, The highest Wisdom and the first Love.
Molly Crabapple [Flag of Puerto Rico] @mollycrabapple
On January 20, 2017, the day of Trump's inauguration, police kettled 217 anti-Trump protesters in the freezing cold and arrested them after sixteen hours.
Prosecutors then tried to put them in prison for 70+ years, on the accusation that all of them collectively broke a window.
stickdog99 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:48 pm wrote:OK, I concede that. So do you want me to join the entire MSM chorus and its "liberal" cheerleaders now welcoming, even begging for, further Big Tech censorship and a new, far more authoritarian and restrictive "Patriot" Act aimed at "fighting fascism"?
No, obviously. Would you not find that question insulting?
But there's going to be no fighting the censorship and rise in statist repression by advancing unproveable scenarios on sheer plausibility. We had our one shot at that to start this century, and we blew it. Even though there are so many aspects of this fascist mob riot that look scripted, and even though the aftermath is likely to run an extremely predictable course (i.e., it was easy to figure out the "benefits" in advance). If Trump doesn't get prosecuted, it will be an indicator. Still nothing we can use as a weapon.
Standing on principle, boring and old and weak as it is, is about all there is to fight it.
.
My point was not to insult you, but to sincerely ask for your advice. I concede that my meta-narrative is neither provable nor particularly helpful. But at least it keeps me from joining in the "we all need to have our ever diminishing rights further curtailed to protect our elites and stop the scary deplorables" chorus that everybody I know keeps repeating as some sort of self-evident truth.
Molly Crabapple [Flag of Puerto Rico] @mollycrabapple
On January 20, 2017, the day of Trump's inauguration, police kettled 217 anti-Trump protesters in the freezing cold and arrested them after sixteen hours.
Prosecutors then tried to put them in prison for 70+ years, on the accusation that all of them collectively broke a window.
JackRiddler » 08 Jan 2021 04:58 wrote:Yeah, stickdog, your master narrative is entirely possible but plausibility is an insufficient standard of proof.
We have what's in front of us. There's no way of denying it. A fascist mob, organized by fascist groups and invited to Washington by the president, then incited and dispatched by him to seize the Capitol so as to stop the procedure by which he is to be removed from power. That's what you know. Denying or trivializing that is a different kind of patsydom. Also, it pisses people off because we can all see it.
We also know the predictable response by the old and new stewards of the state. You're not going to connect that to Trump as an actor playing a role in a larger kayfabe script, as plausible as it is. It is not going to be proven. It is not going to be an effective argument for fighting against the predictable moves by the state to turn this into the new enabling act for repression.
The only effective argument you have is, ironically enough, the "strength of the democratic institutions in the US". That enabling repression is not a response worthy of the sort of nation that could have Trump as president and still function, or something. Just about everyone who did this is on video or I will bet took their mobile phones with them. They will all get busted under current laws and what have you (as if they aren't already repressive enough.)
You don't need more repression and control. The system works.
Tho I hope the guy who was photographed walking out with a big grin and the speakers podium (his name is Adam Johnson and even I already know where he lives and how many kids he has) gets away with it and turns the podium into a massive superbong.
Capitol Incident a Dress Rehearsal: The storming of the Capitol may just be a harbinger of things to come. January 7, 2021
By Joe Lauria Special to Consortium News
With the normalization of mass shootings in the United States it is more than understandable that members of Congress feared for their lives when they learned protestors had forced their way into the Capitol in unknown numbers and were roaming around at will.
But by the time it was over we knew that: only five weapons were seized by police so most of the intruders were probably unarmed; the only shots fired were by police who killed an unarmed female protestor; video and photos showed the demonstrators taking pictures of chambers and art work like they were tourists; and the occupiers were peacefully led out of the Capitol six hours later. (Had they been anti-racism protestors one wonders how differently it would have ended.)
A dramatic event such as this is an old-time reporter’s dream, to just describe the facts and details as they emerged, painting a picture in words in print or on the radio. With so many mobile phone pictures and video as well as TV cameras everywhere, that journalistic function has been greatly diminished if not extinguished. In its place are preaching, partisan, editorialists masquerading as mainstream journalists.
By the time it was over it was clear what had not happened: it wasn’t a “coup,” it wasn’t an “insurrection,” it had nothing to do with Putin, or China or Iran and it wasn’t like Pearl Harbor, as Sen. Chuck Schumer ridiculously tried to call it.
It wasn’t the storming of a “temple of democracy,” interrupting Congress’ “sacred duty,” or “desecrating” the “hallowed halls” of the Capitol. Such quasi-religious rhetoric inflates the self-importance of officials elevating themselves above the people they are supposed to serve.
It was not the storming and occupation of the Japanese Embassy in Lima, Peru in 1996 or the 1985 seizure of the Palace of Justice in Bogota, Colombia.
It was in some ways the downtrodden forcing their existence into the faces of an elitist Congress who serve very powerful interests instead.
But it was also the delusive manipulation of desperate people by Donald Trump, a master manipulator who for his own interests has somehow convinced millions of Americans that he is their champion whose re-election was stolen from them, even when it is doubtful their lives were much improved over the past four years.
What this event did is send a message, which went beyond claims of a stolen election, a message that no one in Congress or the media will openly acknowledge, if they’ve gotten the message at all, namely, that as long as Congress and the rest of the Establishment continue to ignore ordinary Americans’ interests and serve only their own, the anger and the desperation in the land will explode, rendering Wednesday’s events merely a dress rehearsal for what may well turn into a full-blown insurrection. Congress must understand this before it’s too late.
stickdog99 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:23 pm wrote:https://consortiumnews.com/2021/01/07/capitol-incident-a-dress-rehearsal/?unapproved=411542&moderation-hash=671a6c3b6f6aee24e551360bd25ec288#comment-411542
Capitol Incident a Dress Rehearsal: The storming of the Capitol may just be a harbinger of things to come. January 7, 2021
By Joe Lauria Special to Consortium News
...
With so many mobile phone pictures and video as well as TV cameras everywhere, that journalistic function has been greatly diminished if not extinguished. In its place are preaching, partisan, editorialists masquerading as mainstream journalists.
By the time it was over it was clear what had not happened: it wasn’t a “coup,” it wasn’t an “insurrection,” it had nothing to do with Putin, or China or Iran and it wasn’t like Pearl Harbor, as Sen. Chuck Schumer ridiculously tried to call it.
It wasn’t the storming of a “temple of democracy,” interrupting Congress’ “sacred duty,” or “desecrating” the “hallowed halls” of the Capitol. Such quasi-religious rhetoric inflates the self-importance of officials elevating themselves above the people they are supposed to serve.
...
^^^^^^^^
Astute, particularly the portion bolded by Stickdog.
And also this:
It was in some ways the downtrodden forcing their existence into the faces of an elitist Congress who serve very powerful interests instead.
But it was also the delusive manipulation of desperate people by Donald Trump, a master manipulator who for his own interests has somehow convinced millions of Americans that he is their champion whose re-election was stolen from them, even when it is doubtful their lives were much improved over the past four years.
What this event did is send a message, which went beyond claims of a stolen election, a message that no one in Congress or the media will openly acknowledge, if they’ve gotten the message at all, namely, that as long as Congress and the rest of the Establishment continue to ignore ordinary Americans’ interests and serve only their own, the anger and the desperation in the land will explode...
Critical points of analysis that have been largely missed here, and in other so-called progressivevenues. Instead, many self-identified "liberals" resort to belittling the downtrodden and looking the other way -- scratch that: in a number of instances, CHEERING ON -- while Empire expands its bootprint on the majority.
"Had they been anti-racism protestors one wonders how differently it would have ended"
Does one really wonder?
The journalist's function is to paint a picture? This is like saying photography makes painting obsolete. As if the goal is to reduce everything to still-life, so representational technique is all that matters.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
Here's one of the most famous of what you seem to think is the downtrodden expressing themselves. Pretty amazing it's still up - more illustration of some kind of privilege.
Yes, the mob of armed fascists, racists, right-wing boot-boys, lost-cause confederates and assorted domination-worshipping morons along for the thrill-ride, who followed the invitation and orders of a (possibly) billionaire president playing Hitler to storm the country's parliament in an effort to demand an open fascist dictatorship under said president may indeed have contained a few of the downtrodden.
This is what you take away from the fascist riot? Society and the system suck, so we must show understanding for fascists when they storm the Capitol demanding that their leader be re-installed after losing an election?
They are not patsies. They are not misled, except through whatever childhood conditioning and socialization made them racist hyper-nationalists looking for a suicide pact with a grand charismatic leader in the first place.
They are not allies, if only we were to use nicer words. They exist to enable exactly the form of politics that they are calling for. They won't get the repression they demanded under their chosen leader, but they will get it anyway.
And BS, I don't know, maybe you're doing parody? (It was my first thought about "Yellowstone Wolf." But then I remembered just how often I fell for thinking this kind of shit was parody.)
Are you trying to illustrate Kurt Tucholsky's poem?
Here is a translation from the German by Daniel Kahn, with a mistake corrected by me. (A literal rendering of "embrace the fascists" would be "Kiss the fascists.")
Rosen auf dem Weg gestreut ("Cover their way with roses")
You have to treat them nice and gentle Do nothing rash, they're sensitive You must be somewhat sentimental Respectful of the way they live Don't let your dogs bark at them on the street Embrace the fascists where you may meet
If they should call for hate or violence Just let them talk, it is their right And keep your protestations silent You wouldn't want to start a fight For fighting is what they do best Embrace the fascists and you'll be blessed
And if they fire their guns upon you Is life so precious in your eyes? You would be sheep with wolves around you Why not be gladly victimized? And if you feel inside your guts The Nazi dagger's blade Embrace the fascists that you have made
.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.
To Justice my maker from on high did incline: I am by virtue of its might divine, The highest Wisdom and the first Love.
