Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:37 pm

DrEvil » 13 Jan 2021 21:29 wrote:That was a pretty fucking terrible piece. The real fascists are the people opposed to fascism!

Let the rot fester and keep trivializing it and I'm sure it will go away on its own.


Here's the thing, Even moreso than the events of 9/11, this event was objectively trivial. But this statement is not meant to minimize the deaths of 3,000+ people nor the very real threat of well-armed fascist mobs mobilized to actual deadly and destructive ends..

But even moreso that the events of 9/11, the overreaction to this event among almost every single person I know is quite real, palpable, and at least to me personally nerve-wracking. My friends do want to kill those disrespectful yahoos. Or at minimum, they, like you, want to break into a happy song and dance anytime they hear about anyone who so much as dared to question our sacrosanct voting machine tallies losing his or her job and/or getting his or her social media account banned.

This has been a complete and total lockstep reaction among my liberal friends (in other words, all of my friends). So while I totally appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that it needs to be stoked any further, at least among its intended audience.
Last edited by stickdog99 on Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:44 pm

Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:12 pm wrote:
Harvey » 12 Jan 2021 22:57 wrote:Hopkins is too mild. And I can't believe your response represents the state of RI in 2021 Joe, but it does. We're fucked.


Seriously it was shit house writing. And propaganda. Yeah everything is propaganda but this is just poorly done.


Yeah.

As for the rest of what you wrote there,
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=20355&p=692565#p692565
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby Marionumber1 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:09 pm

stickdog99 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:37 pm wrote:Or at minimum, they, like you, want to break into a happy song and dance anytime they hear about anyone who so much as dared to question our sacrosanct voting machine tallies losing his or her job and/or getting his or her social media account banned.


Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe most of those who received adverse consequences for posting things like that went far beyond just questioning voting machine results (which indeed are inherently dubious). There is raising valid concerns about the results, and then there is claiming with virtually no real evidence that the election was stolen and Trump was the legitimate winner of the election. Among the stop-the-steal crowd, it was almost all the latter, with no discernment as to what constituted genuine evidence. And perhaps some were well-meaning individuals who got fooled, but I believe a much larger number were never going to accept a Trump loss no matter what, so they seized on any piece of evidence that could theoretically support their predetermined position.

I still am concerned about the reverberations this has on the broader election integrity movement. Trump's election fraud claims combined with the January 6 storming of the Capitol have likely set back the cause of election integrity (at least e-voting concerns) quite a bit, and it is easier for the "liberal" crowd to justify all suppression of these ideas. YouTube has already gotten to the point of prohibiting discussion of any historical election (even a well-proven case like Bush's "win" in 2004) being stolen: https://twitter.com/RubinReport/status/1336694029111660544 There are some concerning overreactions on the part of Big Tech (though other actions, like deplatforming individuals such as Trump who were actually provoking violence, do not qualify for that in my book), and reasonable (but also unproven!) suspicions that some of these events may have been orchestrated to justify this response. But none of that takes away from the fundamental disgracefulness of the individuals trying to overturn the 2020 election outcome. Even if there was a broader conspiracy, it took advantage of a whole lot of "true believer" fascists whose goal was subverting the democratic process.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby dada » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:29 pm

"I don't really see what is particularly controversial about a "control narrative""

That's because there's nothing controversial about it. What's controversial is a narrative that is not a control narrative.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby Marionumber1 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:32 pm

I meant controversial to you, because you seem to have been advocating against one.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby dada » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:46 pm

It doesn't matter what I think. Does it?
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:10 am

JackRiddler » 15 Jan 2021 09:44 wrote:
Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:12 pm wrote:
Harvey » 12 Jan 2021 22:57 wrote:Hopkins is too mild. And I can't believe your response represents the state of RI in 2021 Joe, but it does. We're fucked.


Seriously it was shit house writing. And propaganda. Yeah everything is propaganda but this is just poorly done.


Yeah.

As for the rest of what you wrote there,
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... 65#p692565


Cheers.

Sometimes I think this board makes the mistake of looking too hard for what we don't know and ignoring what we do. Its understandable given the board, what its about, and our knowledge that stuff is never usually not as it seems on the surface.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby dada » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:36 am

I also think we tend to forget that what we don't know could fill an ocean. Not that I think it isn't knowable, I'm not agnostic. But the universe we do know, vast as it is, is like a ring found on the beach by comparison.

Stuff is usually not as it seems on the surface.

Mario, I should mention that I find your contributions to the board invaluable, and I hope that nothing I could say could discourage your continued research, which is solid. What I think is complicated, but under it all is a wish to be encouraging.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby Marionumber1 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:18 pm

No worries, dada. Even if our worldviews don't always align (and I doubt any two people's ever would in their entirety), I appreciate your presence here to give opposing perspectives. It is always worth remembering that we shouldn't immediately be jumping on the conspiracy train, only when the evidence actually supports that something deeper is going on.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:36 pm

Marionumber1 » 15 Jan 2021 01:09 wrote:
stickdog99 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:37 pm wrote:Or at minimum, they, like you, want to break into a happy song and dance anytime they hear about anyone who so much as dared to question our sacrosanct voting machine tallies losing his or her job and/or getting his or her social media account banned.


Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe most of those who received adverse consequences for posting things like that went far beyond just questioning voting machine results (which indeed are inherently dubious). There is raising valid concerns about the results, and then there is claiming with virtually no real evidence that the election was stolen and Trump was the legitimate winner of the election. Among the stop-the-steal crowd, it was almost all the latter, with no discernment as to what constituted genuine evidence. And perhaps some were well-meaning individuals who got fooled, but I believe a much larger number were never going to accept a Trump loss no matter what, so they seized on any piece of evidence that could theoretically support their predetermined position.

I still am concerned about the reverberations this has on the broader election integrity movement. Trump's election fraud claims combined with the January 6 storming of the Capitol have likely set back the cause of election integrity (at least e-voting concerns) quite a bit, and it is easier for the "liberal" crowd to justify all suppression of these ideas. YouTube has already gotten to the point of prohibiting discussion of any historical election (even a well-proven case like Bush's "win" in 2004) being stolen: https://twitter.com/RubinReport/status/1336694029111660544 There are some concerning overreactions on the part of Big Tech (though other actions, like deplatforming individuals such as Trump who were actually provoking violence, do not qualify for that in my book), and reasonable (but also unproven!) suspicions that some of these events may have been orchestrated to justify this response. But none of that takes away from the fundamental disgracefulness of the individuals trying to overturn the 2020 election outcome. Even if there was a broader conspiracy, it took advantage of a whole lot of "true believer" fascists whose goal was subverting the democratic process.


I basically agree. But "good liberals" should be trying to use current Republican suspicions of voting machines to reform the whole fraud-o-matic US vote counting process instead of cheering when videos that question voting machines are censored by Big Tech algorithims,
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:07 pm

Marionumber1 » 14 Jan 2021 23:28 wrote:I don't really see what is particularly controversial about a "control narrative". On Rigorous Intuition of all places, it seems odd to me that the idea of powerful individuals conspiring together to manipulate society for their own benefit is a concept that's in dispute. I haven't seen anyone here claim that the elites are all powerful or always act in perfect unison, but the nature of interpersonal dynamics often results in coordinated actions that certainly, for most intents and purposes, resemble monolithic plots. To use the Kennedy assassination as an example: it's not as if the corporate executives, high-level CIA officers, military leaders, Mafia players, and Cuban exiles all had the exact same goals, or liked each other on a personal level, or even agreed on all the dynamics of what should happen, but through a series of behind-the-scenes relationships between all of these groups, they found common purposes and put a plan in motion that certainly appears from the outside to be one broad conspiracy for a hostile takeover of government. And the very history of the CIA itself suggests the same pattern, given its formation by a bunch of Wall Street veterans and its actions both foreign and domestic that constantly centered around the promotion of corporate America's interests. If control narratives have so much potency, it is because that's what those in power have actually been doing, with imperfect but still notable success over the years.


That's the trick about conspiracy theories in general. Once they are proven (Gulf of Tonkin. Watergate, MK Ultra, USS Iowa, Operations Paperclip & Snow White, Arms for Hostages, Project Sunshine, Kuwaiti incubator babies, the CIA-crack connection, the poisoning of Flint, MI, etc. etc.), they are no longer conspiracy theories but merely "exceptional" historical facts. What's most amusing about this to me is to imagine gangsters able to evade prosecution under the RICO Act by invoking psychological arguments asserting that the illusion of any supposed racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations activity was obviously nothing but a psychological compensatory control mechanism..

Why are conspiracies made and kept in secret so easy to believe for gangsters but so hard to imagine for oligarchs?

"We used to have a saying: 'If you don't get the asses of the masses out in the street, forget it.' And you get enough of them out there, the ruling class gets scared. That's the only thing they're afraid of, is numbers. Numbers! See, one thing you have to understand. ... The ruling class is smarter than you, and they're more creative. And if you forget that lesson, you go down the drain. Because if they weren't, they wouldn't be around as long as they have been and as strong as they have been. It's not an accident. Not an accident. ... Lord Acton said: 'Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.' I say that power works 24 hours to remain in power. Throughout history. Go back to kings, feudal times. The same thing. ... Their fucking machine works 24 hours a day, man. It grinds; it grinds. Otherwise they don't stay in power; they topple." Al Lewis
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby dada » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:29 pm

I can't help thinking that in the puppet-master narrative, the puppet masters are free of the narrative. They just use it to manipulate us, to keep us from seeing what is really going on. But what is really going on is that puppet masters are manipulating us, using the puppet-master narrative to keep us from seeing what is really going on.

The argument has a fractal quality to it.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:39 pm

stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:37 am wrote:
DrEvil » 13 Jan 2021 21:29 wrote:That was a pretty fucking terrible piece. The real fascists are the people opposed to fascism!

Let the rot fester and keep trivializing it and I'm sure it will go away on its own.


Here's the thing, Even moreso than the events of 9/11, this event was objectively trivial. But this statement is not meant to minimize the deaths of 3,000+ people nor the very real threat of well-armed fascist mobs mobilized to actual deadly and destructive ends..

But even moreso that the events of 9/11, the overreaction to this event among almost every single person I know is quite real, palpable, and at least to me personally nerve-wracking. My friends do want to kill those disrespectful yahoos. Or at minimum, they, like you, want to break into a happy song and dance anytime they hear about anyone who so much as dared to question our sacrosanct voting machine tallies losing his or her job and/or getting his or her social media account banned.

This has been a complete and total lockstep reaction among my liberal friends (in other words, all of my friends). So while I totally appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that it needs to be stoked any further, at least among its intended audience.


This wasn't trivial in any sense of the word. A fascist mob stormed Congress in an attempt to overthrow the election, with the support of a sizeable chunk of law enforcement, the President and a third of the elected officials inside the building.

They're not going to stop trying shit like this unless you root them out and stomp them hard. If that means some of the dumb fuckers in the crowd lose their jobs or face other negative consequences, well boo-fuckity-hoo. Play stupid games - win stupid prizes.

I agree that the cries for more laws and regulations to stop these people are stupid and counterproductive. The current legal framework has all the tools needed to go after the people who planned and executed the putsch, and any and all proposed "Patriot Act 2.0" should be fought tooth and nail.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:24 pm

DrEvil » 15 Jan 2021 22:39 wrote:
stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:37 am wrote:
DrEvil » 13 Jan 2021 21:29 wrote:That was a pretty fucking terrible piece. The real fascists are the people opposed to fascism!

Let the rot fester and keep trivializing it and I'm sure it will go away on its own.


Here's the thing, Even moreso than the events of 9/11, this event was objectively trivial. But this statement is not meant to minimize the deaths of 3,000+ people nor the very real threat of well-armed fascist mobs mobilized to actual deadly and destructive ends..

But even moreso that the events of 9/11, the overreaction to this event among almost every single person I know is quite real, palpable, and at least to me personally nerve-wracking. My friends do want to kill those disrespectful yahoos. Or at minimum, they, like you, want to break into a happy song and dance anytime they hear about anyone who so much as dared to question our sacrosanct voting machine tallies losing his or her job and/or getting his or her social media account banned.

This has been a complete and total lockstep reaction among my liberal friends (in other words, all of my friends). So while I totally appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that it needs to be stoked any further, at least among its intended audience.


This wasn't trivial in any sense of the word. A fascist mob stormed Congress in an attempt to overthrow the election, with the support of a sizeable chunk of law enforcement, the President and a third of the elected officials inside the building.

They're not going to stop trying shit like this unless you root them out and stomp them hard. If that means some of the dumb fuckers in the crowd lose their jobs or face other negative consequences, well boo-fuckity-hoo. Play stupid games - win stupid prizes.

I agree that the cries for more laws and regulations to stop these people are stupid and counterproductive. The current legal framework has all the tools needed to go after the people who planned and executed the putsch, and any and all proposed "Patriot Act 2.0" should be fought tooth and nail.


Then there is a fundamental difference in my analysis of this event from yours. I don't think these yahoos had the support of any parties currently in any real positions of power except in as much as these yahoos could be manipulated to perform a spectacular made-for-TV failure to achieve certain ends.

As the old saying among KKK members goes, "Which of us are ex-FBI and which of us are still informants?"

At minimum, you have to admit that the various alphabet agencies had to know there was a very real threat of an armed insurgency, yet somehow chose to do nothing about it.

Again, this is not to trivialize the very real future potential of the very real violent tendencies of these yahoos being unleashed on innocent people. The whole scenario reminds me of gain-of-function viruses that deluded scientists assume they can contain in their labs. First and foremost, fuck you for creating and then nurturing them.
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Re: Year Zero - CJ Hopkins

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:21 am

mentalgongfu2 » 14 Jan 2021 15:28 wrote:You're not wrong, Joe. It is to our detriment to ignore how riled up the centre left has become. Is Hegelian dialectic the right term here? Pushing the boundaries with the Trump right in America is not exactly making the left more rational.

And its admittedly hard for some of us to focus on that when the other side has people in the highest offices vouching for Nazi supporters.

I know and sympathise. Its happening to a lesser extent here. Its a messy and chaotic situation.
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