Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:38 pm

Belligerent Savant » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:02 am wrote:
mentalgongfu2 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:15 am wrote:https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/05/26/bmjebm-2021-111678

Misleading clinical evidence and systematic reviews on ivermectin for COVID-19

...


This opinion piece, to be clear, does not indicate Ivermectin is NOT effective.

But the larger issue for me is: why aren't you also doing the same form of casual online searching to raise scrutiny on these experimental shots?
You are reflexively looking for an "anti-ivermectin" piece but appear to support, without reservation, these covid injections (correct me if I'm wrong). Conditioning mechanisms can be powerful.
[/quote]

Consider yourself corrected.
I didn't search for anti-ivermectin info. In fact, I just searched for alternative treatments for Covid. The fact that the top results with citations in actual medical publications all said similar things to the above is coincidental. What would be disingenuous would be to ignore them until I found an article that says the opposite because that's what I want to hear.

I don't support anything "without reservation."
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby DrEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:54 pm

Belligerent Savant » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:15 am wrote:.
DrEvil » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:55 pm wrote:
Karmamatterz » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:13 pm wrote:
...

I'll repeat myself again: How many ( and how often ) were elected officials, bureaucrats, big pharma shills and media talking botheads suggesting to the citizenry that they eat healthy, exercise, get outside for sunshine and fresh air? Did they do this daily? Weekly? How about almost never.
How many other medical treatments have been shoved down our throats like these experimental vaccines? None!

...


Is it really necessary to inform people that healthy living is good for them? Pretty self-evident. If they're not doing it already it's not because they don't know any better.

How many other medical treatments have been shoved down our throats like these experimental vaccines? None!


There's a reason death rates started dropping before the vaccines came along, and that's because they figured out how to treat it better, but they don't shove treatments down your throat until you need them, at which point you're probably already at the hospital. The whole point of vaccines is to stop you from needing treatment at all.



There are treatments shown to be very effective and with practically no side effects, and you're saying they shouldn't be offered as alternatives to experimental shots (which already have a growing list of near-term side effects and ZERO data on long-term side effects)?

How is your comment a compelling or sensible argument for not offering such treatments? Why are these treatments being actively suppressed, and doctors/scientists being censored and/or ostracized, for simply raising the demonstrable benefits of these treatments?

And why the F would anyone NOT receiving compensation by a pharma company even raise objection or issue with MORE options being provided to those afflicted?

The pathology on display is disturbing, as it's unfortunately pervasive and clearly exacerbates the madness we've been enduring, and will continue to endure.

Millions of unpaid shills to pharma and govt encroachment.

The mental gymnastics on display would inspire awe if not so damaging.

You are giving far more credit to these 'vaccines' than merited, but that's to be expected with confirmation bias (and limited due diligence).

As mentioned before, this virus has shown itself to be seasonal/endemic, based on data going back to 2020. The cases and deaths began to drop in 2021 even before 'vaccination' hit anywhere near a sizable percentage to be a primary factor. Natural immunity and seasonal factors have also been contributors to lowered illness rates (arguably, they may have been primary factors) and yet such considerations are almost universally ignored by the narratives parroted by Establishment and their sycophants.

Did you miss the chart I shared earlier?

The states with the highest percentage of those that took these experimental shots have practically the same death rate as the states with the lowest percentage of shot-takers:



Remember, the formal literature from each shot manufacturer never claim to immunize, only lessen symptoms, and even that is no guarantee.

Everyone should be afforded every opportunity for informed consent and choice on treatment methods.
None of this should be mandated under any circumstances.

It's a testament to this currently mad world that the prior 2 sentences need to be typed at all.


In reply to the bolded part:

You're replying to something I didn't say. I made an observation on why I think treatments aren't being "shoved down our throats", not on whether they should be or not. The prevailing mainstream consensus, whether you agree with it or not, is that it's better to stop the virus before treatment is even necessary, so vaccines are given priority.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:10 pm

DrEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:54 pm wrote:
In reply to the bolded part:

You're replying to something I didn't say. I made an observation on why I think treatments aren't being "shoved down our throats", not on whether they should be or not. The prevailing mainstream consensus, whether you agree with it or not, is that it's better to stop the virus before treatment is even necessary, so vaccines are given priority.


Ok, even if we were to grant this explanation for what many appear to think, it still wouldn't explain why there is an active blocking and PR assault against possibly effective treatments for people who have developed symptomatic and often severe cases, and are thus no longer in the prevention category. Either Ivermectin is a fraud, or else a kind of fraud or inexplicable constraint on legitimate exploration in the treatment of serious cases is being committed. Which do you think it is, and if it's the latter, why?

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby DrEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:17 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:10 pm wrote:
DrEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:54 pm wrote:
In reply to the bolded part:

You're replying to something I didn't say. I made an observation on why I think treatments aren't being "shoved down our throats", not on whether they should be or not. The prevailing mainstream consensus, whether you agree with it or not, is that it's better to stop the virus before treatment is even necessary, so vaccines are given priority.


Ok, even if we were to grant this explanation for what many appear to think, it still wouldn't explain why there is an active blocking and PR assault against possibly effective treatments for people who have developed symptomatic and often severe cases, and are thus no longer in the prevention category. Either Ivermectin is a fraud, or else a kind of fraud or inexplicable constraint on legitimate exploration in the treatment of serious cases is being committed. Which do you think it is, and if it's the latter, why?

.


Emphasis on "possibly effective". People can't agree on whether it's a good treatment or not. Until they can sort it out once and for all and stop the poo-flinging the recommendation is to not use it outside clinical trials.

The 'inexplicable constraint' is just Youtube and friends having algorithms with zero nuance, and legal/PR departments in the mainstream media (in which I include Youtube, Twitter and Facebook) terrified of controversy.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:09 pm

DrEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:17 pm wrote:Emphasis on "possibly effective". People can't agree on whether it's a good treatment or not. Until they can sort it out once and for all and stop the poo-flinging the recommendation is to not use it outside clinical trials.


It doesn't matter if people can't agree. Science is not about agreement, it's about testing, right? There was always a way to test it out broadly and with no risk (since ivermectin has been in use for decades and administered safely billions of times), AND this was not in contradiction with the vaccine push. So what was up with that?

The 'inexplicable constraint' is just Youtube and friends having algorithms with zero nuance, and legal/PR departments in the mainstream media (in which I include Youtube, Twitter and Facebook) terrified of controversy.


Perhaps I was being too ironic with inexplicable. I suppose I should have called it inexcusable. And it wasn't just the social media. Their censorship measures, especially on current 'public health' issues, are generally downstream of the policy set by the state and other powerbrokers.

I do want to thank Psaki for providing a big part of a future suit to establish that the social media cartel is engaged in state-directed censorship and is a quasi-state institution by virtue of monopoly and thus subject to obeying First Amendment limits.

.



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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Harvey » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:28 pm

JackRiddler » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:09 am wrote:I do want to thank Psaki for providing a big part of a future suit to establish that the social media cartel is engaged in state-directed censorship and is a quasi-state institution by virtue of monopoly and thus subject to obeying First Amendment limits.


That is interesting.

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:53 pm

Ha, but not if a fraud like D'Souza is involved. ;-)
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:28 am

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns

The preprint endorsing ivermectin as a coronavirus therapy has been widely cited, but independent researchers find glaring discrepancies in the data


The efficacy of a drug being promoted by rightwing figures worldwide for treating Covid-19 is in serious doubt after a major study suggesting the treatment is effective against the virus was withdrawn due to “ethical concerns”.

The preprint study on the efficacy and safety of ivermectin – a drug used against parasites such as worms and headlice – in treating Covid-19, led by Dr Ahmed Elgazzar from Benha University in Egypt, was published on the Research Square website in November.

It claimed to be a randomised control trial, a type of study crucial in medicine because it is considered to provide the most reliable evidence on the effectiveness of interventions due to the minimal risk of confounding factors influencing the results. Elgazzar is listed as chief editor of the Benha Medical Journal, and is an editorial board member.
A pharmacist holds the anti-parasite drug ivermectin for sale to the public in Bolivia
Unreliable data: how doubt snowballed over Covid-19 drug research that swept the world
Read more

The study found that patients with Covid-19 treated in hospital who “received ivermectin early reported substantial recovery” and that there was “a substantial improvement and reduction in mortality rate in ivermectin treated groups” by 90%.

But the drug’s promise as a treatment for the virus is in serious doubt after the Elgazzar study was pulled from the Research Square website on Thursday “due to ethical concerns”. Research Square did not outline what those concerns were.

A medical student in London, Jack Lawrence, was among the first to identify serious concerns about the paper, leading to the retraction. He first became aware of the Elgazzar preprint when it was assigned to him by one of his lecturers for an assignment that formed part of his master’s degree. He found the introduction section of the paper appeared to have been almost entirely plagiarised.

It appeared that the authors had run entire paragraphs from press releases and websites about ivermectin and Covid-19 through a thesaurus to change key words. “Humorously, this led to them changing ‘severe acute respiratory syndrome’ to ‘extreme intense respiratory syndrome’ on one occasion,” Lawrence said.

The data also looked suspicious to Lawrence, with the raw data apparently contradicting the study protocol on several occasions.

“The authors claimed to have done the study only on 18-80 year olds, but at least three patients in the dataset were under 18,” Lawrence said.

“The authors claimed they conducted the study between the 8th of June and 20th of September 2020, however most of the patients who died were admitted into hospital and died before the 8th of June according to the raw data. The data was also terribly formatted, and includes one patient who left hospital on the non-existent date of 31/06/2020.”

There were other concerns.

“In their paper, the authors claim that four out of 100 patients died in their standard treatment group for mild and moderate Covid-19,” Lawrence said. “According to the original data, the number was 0, the same as the ivermectin treatment group. In their ivermectin treatment group for severe Covid-19, the authors claim two patients died, but the number in their raw data is four.”

Lawrence and the Guardian sent Elgazzar a comprehensive list of questions about the data, but did not receive a reply. The university’s press office also did not respond.

Lawrence contacted an Australian chronic disease epidemiologist from the University of Wollongong, Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, and a data analyst affiliated with Linnaeus University in Sweden who reviews scientific papers for errors, Nick Brown, for help analysing the data and study results more thoroughly.

Brown created a comprehensive document uncovering numerous data errors, discrepancies and concerns, which he provided to the Guardian. According to his findings the authors had clearly repeated data between patients.

“The main error is that at least 79 of the patient records are obvious clones of other records,” Brown told the Guardian. “It’s certainly the hardest to explain away as innocent error, especially since the clones aren’t even pure copies. There are signs that they have tried to change one or two fields to make them look more natural.”

Other studies on ivermectin are still under way. In the UK, the University of Oxford is testing whether giving people with Covid-19 ivermectin prevents them ending up in hospital.

The Elgazzar study was one of the the largest and most promising showing the drug may help Covid patients, and has often been cited by proponents of the drug as evidence of its effectiveness. This is despite a peer-reviewed paper published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases in June finding ivermectin is “not a viable option to treat COVID-19 patients”.

Meyerowitz-Katz told the Guardian that “this is one of the biggest ivermectin studies out there”, and it appeared to him the data was “just totally faked”. This was concerning because two meta-analyses of ivermectin for treating Covid-19 had included the Elgazzar study in the results. A meta-analysis is a statistical analysis that combines the results of multiple scientific studies to determine what the overall scientific literature has found about a treatment or intervention.

“Because the Elgazzar study is so large, and so massively positive – showing a 90% reduction in mortality – it hugely skews the evidence in favour of ivermectin,” Meyerowitz-Katz said.

“If you remove this one study from the scientific literature, suddenly there are very few positive randomised control trials of ivermectin for Covid-19. Indeed, if you get rid of just this research, most meta-analyses that have found positive results would have their conclusions entirely reversed.”


Kyle Sheldrick, a Sydney doctor and researcher, also independently raised concerns about the paper. He found numbers the authors provided for several standard deviations – a measure of variation in a group of data points – mentioned in tables in the paper were “mathematically impossible” given the range of numbers provided in the same table.

Sheldrick said the completeness of data was further evidence suggesting possible fabrication, noting that in real-world conditions, this was almost impossible. He also identified the duplication of patient deaths and data.

Ivermectin has gained momentum throughout Latin America and India, largely based on evidence from preprint studies. In March, the World Health Organization warned against the use of ivermectin outside well designed clinical trials.

The conservative Australian MP Craig Kelly, who has also promoted the use of the anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid-19 – despite there being no evidence that it works – has been among those promoting ivermectin. Several Indian media outlets ran stories on Kelly in the past week after he asked Uttar Pradesh to loan the state’s chief minister, Adityanath, to Australia to release ivermectin. After this story was initially published, Kelly contacted the Guardian to say he disagreed with the statement that there was no evidence that hydroxychloroquine worked, and that he stood by his views.

Lawrence said what started out as a simple university assignment had led to a comprehensive investigation into an apparent scientific fraud at a time when “there is a whole ivermectin hype … dominated by a mix of right-wing figures, anti-vaxxers and outright conspiracists”.

“Although science trends towards self-correction, something is clearly broken in a system that can allow a study as full of problems as the Elgazzar paper to run unchallenged for seven months,” he said.

“Thousands of highly educated scientists, doctors, pharmacists, and at least four major medicines regulators missed a fraud so apparent that it might as well have come with a flashing neon sign. That this all happened amid an ongoing global health crisis of epic proportions is all the more terrifying.”
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:18 am

Oh, and by the way, just to preempt the likely accusation from certain posters that I shared the above article after searching out anti-ivermectin stories, I came across this breaking news in my near daily dive of slashdot,

https://science.slashdot.org/story/21/07/17/1010228/influential-ivermectin-study-accused-of-totally-faked-data
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby drstrangelove » Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:20 am

The situation with Ivermectin is very clear.

On one hand you have physicians, who are operating in reality by treating patients and observing the results.

On the other you have rationalists, who are sitting behind their desks waiting for reality to be arbitrarily converted into data using the 'correct' manner.

What the physicians are doing is science. What the rationalists are doing is 'the science'.

Science is the observation of reality using the senses. 'the science' is the observation of reality that has been arbitrarily converted into data according to one authoritarian framework.

What's happening with Ivermectin is physicians all around the world have observed it work in reality. There is a clear consensus on this. The rationalists, being institutional academics, are denying this reality by saying it hasn't been arbitrarily converted into data according to the authoritarian framework used to validate it and which they preside over.

Of course, the authoritarian framework they use to validate the conversion of reality into data, also called 'best practice', can only be met if it has institution backing by either a pharmaceutical company or a grant given by another institute like the Rockefeller foundation.

The academic rationalists support the institutions unconsciously. There is no conspiracy here, just typical naivety. There are a large number of academics that eventually figure this out, who are then either squeezed out or comply while at the same time complain about the politics in their profession, without realizing it is their profession to enforce institutional and authoritarian frameworks on reality. This can be very hard on some of them, who had motivated themselves on principled ideals of truth to get a degree and pursue their career. And the world would be a better place if they killed themselves.Thus goes the saying, that "between the idea and the reality, lies the shadow" and for them in more ways than one.

These fucking rationalists are cancer, their propaganda is the article above. They are authoritarians without realizing it, which is the most dangerous kind. They are the reason why institutional credibility has fallen so far over the last 16 months, which is due to reality becoming too big for them to cover up.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:07 am

^^^^^^^^
Bingo.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:58 am



Where is that chart from?

It must be because of that pecky Delta variant! And the only possible solution to vaccinate more!
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:12 pm

DrEvil » 16 Jul 2021 23:55 wrote:
Karmamatterz » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:13 pm wrote:
...

I'll repeat myself again: How many ( and how often ) were elected officials, bureaucrats, big pharma shills and media talking botheads suggesting to the citizenry that they eat healthy, exercise, get outside for sunshine and fresh air? Did they do this daily? Weekly? How about almost never.
How many other medical treatments have been shoved down our throats like these experimental vaccines? None!

...


Is it really necessary to inform people that healthy living is good for them? Pretty self-evident. If they're not doing it already it's not because they don't know any better.

How many other medical treatments have been shoved down our throats like these experimental vaccines? None!


There's a reason death rates started dropping before the vaccines came along, and that's because they figured out how to treat it better, but they don't shove treatments down your throat until you need them, at which point you're probably already at the hospital. The whole point of vaccines is to stop you from needing treatment at all.


You are avoiding the point, which is that any government actually wanting to reduce rates of mortality would have:

1) provided free healthcare
2) encouraged healthy lifestyles and provided free nutritious food and nutrition supplements
3) protected the vulnerable elderly rather than housing them with infectious patients and euthanizing them with drugs
4) set up places outside of populated areas for infected individuals to voluntarily quarantine
5) offered free delivery of life's necessities and a living wage stipend to those who were infected during their quarantine period

Instead we have seen a nothing but a singular drumbeat for lockdowns, masks, and experimental vaccines, none of which have been scientifically demonstrated to help us more than than they hurt us.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:24 pm

DrEvil » 17 Jul 2021 19:54 wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:15 am wrote:.
DrEvil » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:55 pm wrote:
Karmamatterz » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:13 pm wrote:
...

I'll repeat myself again: How many ( and how often ) were elected officials, bureaucrats, big pharma shills and media talking botheads suggesting to the citizenry that they eat healthy, exercise, get outside for sunshine and fresh air? Did they do this daily? Weekly? How about almost never.
How many other medical treatments have been shoved down our throats like these experimental vaccines? None!

...


Is it really necessary to inform people that healthy living is good for them? Pretty self-evident. If they're not doing it already it's not because they don't know any better.

How many other medical treatments have been shoved down our throats like these experimental vaccines? None!


There's a reason death rates started dropping before the vaccines came along, and that's because they figured out how to treat it better, but they don't shove treatments down your throat until you need them, at which point you're probably already at the hospital. The whole point of vaccines is to stop you from needing treatment at all.



There are treatments shown to be very effective and with practically no side effects, and you're saying they shouldn't be offered as alternatives to experimental shots (which already have a growing list of near-term side effects and ZERO data on long-term side effects)?

How is your comment a compelling or sensible argument for not offering such treatments? Why are these treatments being actively suppressed, and doctors/scientists being censored and/or ostracized, for simply raising the demonstrable benefits of these treatments?

And why the F would anyone NOT receiving compensation by a pharma company even raise objection or issue with MORE options being provided to those afflicted?

The pathology on display is disturbing, as it's unfortunately pervasive and clearly exacerbates the madness we've been enduring, and will continue to endure.

Millions of unpaid shills to pharma and govt encroachment.

The mental gymnastics on display would inspire awe if not so damaging.

You are giving far more credit to these 'vaccines' than merited, but that's to be expected with confirmation bias (and limited due diligence).

As mentioned before, this virus has shown itself to be seasonal/endemic, based on data going back to 2020. The cases and deaths began to drop in 2021 even before 'vaccination' hit anywhere near a sizable percentage to be a primary factor. Natural immunity and seasonal factors have also been contributors to lowered illness rates (arguably, they may have been primary factors) and yet such considerations are almost universally ignored by the narratives parroted by Establishment and their sycophants.

Did you miss the chart I shared earlier?

The states with the highest percentage of those that took these experimental shots have practically the same death rate as the states with the lowest percentage of shot-takers:



Remember, the formal literature from each shot manufacturer never claim to immunize, only lessen symptoms, and even that is no guarantee.

Everyone should be afforded every opportunity for informed consent and choice on treatment methods.
None of this should be mandated under any circumstances.

It's a testament to this currently mad world that the prior 2 sentences need to be typed at all.


In reply to the bolded part:

You're replying to something I didn't say. I made an observation on why I think treatments aren't being "shoved down our throats", not on whether they should be or not. The prevailing mainstream consensus, whether you agree with it or not, is that it's better to stop the virus before treatment is even necessary, so vaccines are given priority.


Why is this the prevailing mainstream con$en$u$? And why is it not the prevailing mainstream con$en$u$ to encourage healthy immune systems in humans? Oh, because that would be too obvious. Right?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:26 pm

mentalgongfu2 » 18 Jul 2021 11:18 wrote:Oh, and by the way, just to preempt the likely accusation from certain posters that I shared the above article after searching out anti-ivermectin stories, I came across this breaking news in my near daily dive of slashdot,

https://science.slashdot.org/story/21/07/17/1010228/influential-ivermectin-study-accused-of-totally-faked-data


What a surprise that Big Tech foisted anti-ivermectin articles on you without your even having to look for them!
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