wayne madesen on WAR IN THE DARK, new book by german

[yesferatu]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>He has ALSO advocated...REPEATEDLY...for a military coup to right the wrongs these neocon dual loyalists have wrought.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You have mentioned this before in alarmist tones as though Madsen is advocating something sinister. <br><br>I advocate a military coup as well. <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

Okey dokey then. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[yesferatu]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Okey dokey then. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Does that mean I am in the minority?<br><br>History has proven the military <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>within an empire</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> will <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>not</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> revolt. Since we are deep in Empire, it therefore is only wishful thinking. But I certainly stand by it, regardless.<br><br>Just curious why you seem alarmed by the idea of advocating for a military coup. <br><br>As of 10/26, I am an even bigger proponent. <br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Just curious why you seem alarmed by the idea of advocating for a military coup. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Words fail.... <p></p><i></i>

[yesferatu]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Words fail....<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Oh for fuck's sake. stop the melodramatic insinuations that I am such a big ignorant asshole for opting for a military coup at this point and do me a favor. Explain why the military taking out the neocon cabal, as in "defending against enemies foreign and domestic" is so beyond the pale for you.<br><br>Words fail you because it might require putting together an argument? And by putting together an argument, I might reply with something you had not thought of? Or vice versa? <br>Is that the problem?<br><br>Besides, as I've pointed out, miltary coups don't and won't happen in an empire, historically speaking. This is just wishful thinking on Madsen's (and my) part.<br><br> <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=yesferatu@rigorousintuition>yesferatu</A> at: 10/29/06 11:27 am<br></i>

[Dreams End]

Who, yesferatu, in our military, are you suggesting is so democracy and human rights minded that you would trust their leadership in a military coup? <br><br>I can name, off the top of my head, probably a dozen or so coups that the US military and/or CIA have backed in the world. NONE of them resulted in a democratic form of government. But I'm sorry to be melodramatic in your eyes, I just can't seem to find the energy to rebutting the idea that the same people who brought us Falluja would somehow be okey dokey here at home. <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

Tell you what, yesferatu. Go to the thread about the release of Abu Ghraib photos and check out the links provided by James Redford. All the torture was done by either the CIA or US Military. Then you tell me why you trust these guys to run our government. <br><br>Then go to your own thread about the declaration of martial law, and tell me what is the substantive difference between a civilian government declaring martial law, and a civilian government being taken over by the military.<br><br>I'd be really curious about your political orientation. Not as a matter of criticism, but I've been curious if any of this stuff being put out in things like Counterpunch and Harpers, is actually being accepted by those on the left. If you aren't a leftist, then that's not really relevant.<br><br>I have a friend...a childhood friend that I probably wouldn't have become friends with as adults as we are pretty different, who is "Mr. Mainstream." It's weird. He listens totally to mainstream media for all info (plus the Daily Show.) When he turned against Bush, then I knew the country was turning against Bush. Though I'd seen Loose change many months before and he'd completely ridiculed my "conspiracy theories", not long ago he asked me if I'd seen Loose Change and he'd found it compelling. (I don't like the video and am suspicious of how that particular one got all the pub..but that's another story.)<br><br>The day I hear him say that he thinks the only solution is for our military to move in..I'll know it's only a matter of time. <br><br>But see, here's the deal. Those who protest US military intervention abroad are quite likely to protest military intervention at home. And while some on the left might support such a move...any who did not would be rounded up as a matter of security. The US military and CIA would use the time to disappear anyone who they thought would continue to be trouble even after the evil neocons were gone.<br><br>I'd like you, Yesferatu, to learn a bit about the history of Indonesia and how the US CIA not only fomented a coup there, but provided the new leader, Suharto, with the names of all the alleged communists in the country. Half a million people..slaughtered. Why do you imagine they would be so concerned about "democracy" here when that has not been the pattern abroad? If there's a coup...I'm probably fucked. I assume that the palace coup in progress (or structural re-adjustment or whatever we call it when the real powers make a change in puppets) is likely going to be electoral. Leaks, criticisms from military types about the progress of the war..whatever. Then, some safe Dem, like Obama or Hillary, who will explain that the problem in Iraq was "mismanagement" or "failure to articulate an exit strategy" or some such bullshit, will take over and all the progressives will shut up for a little while. But who knows....a military takeover could happen. I think if it did they'd return ostensible civilian control rather quickly but by then the precedent is set. The line between government and military...already pretty fuzzy..is pretty much gone.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[darkbeforedawn]

You are right DE to point out that American fascist policy was in place long before the creation of the state of Israel. However, that does not change the fact that Israel with its racist agenda based on a biblical mandate that places them far far above other nationalities and religions in combination with the "rapture" madness of the christian fundies here in the states gives a kind of populist groundswell to the whole horrible scenario of ripping land away from those who have lived on it and farmed there for generations and appropriating it for Dick and George's companies and for the"far superior" <br>type modern nation of Israel. The image of the swarthy turbaned swathed terrorist is a boggey that has been mined in the US ad nauseum and this boogey was invented and perfected by Israelis as they screamed "terrorist" as they took away the land and livelihoods of defenseless peasants.<br>Now the lowest common denominators of <br> both cultures are in a deadly league against ordinary human beings and their up to now fragile but still recognized "human rights". The use of radioactive weapons and cluster bombs on these defenseless populations both by the US and Israel is a significant indicator, at least to me, that all moral inhibitions have been relinguished by these rogue nations. <br> Another fact that you want to ignore is the repeated instances of espionage, blackmail and other covert operations uncovered involving Israel used against the US. It is moot to point out that Israel had nothing to do with Korea. There is plenty of evidence that it has everything to do with Iraq and now Iran. <p></p><i></i>

[dbeach]

The military the oath is to defend the Constitution<br>as is the pres<br><br>BUT what does a General do IF the pres has committed Treason<br>{most likely Bushs Cheney have done that}<br><br>IF a military coup is engineered against domestic enemies i.e. the bush cabals..then that must trumph obeying the pres..even though this pres has illlegally stolen the office 2 times.<br><br>Jefferson says that Treason requires the US Citizens to throw out the tyrants..<br><br>however the military is about as corrupt as the bush cabals and the citizens are essentially withoput arms and true leadership to this point in reclaiming their lost freedoms.<br><br>There will be NO US Miltary intervention to stop Bush Cheny or the next Traitor in the WH or the traitorous CONgress..<br><br>The US is essentially occupied by a nazi fascist..whatevr regime<br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=6FDD5D9A132E816766142B1551212C82?diaryId=9955">www.myleftwing.com/showDi...aryId=9955</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.<br><br>Hmm. Now where does this phrase come from? Oh yeah--it's the oath of enlistment for the U.S. Armed forces.<br><br>Now, what about the President himself? What does he swear? Oh yeah--that one is specified right there in the Constitution. Quoting from Article 2, Section 1:<br><br>I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.<br><br>Bush keeps on repeating that his primary duty is to defend the American people. BULLSHIT. Bush's primary duty is to defend THE CONSTITUTION--for it is the Constitution itself that serves as our bulwark against all enemies, foreign and domestic. <br> <br>hekebolos :: Against all enemies, foreign and domestic. <br>In fact, defending, preserving and protecting the Constitution is his only sworn obligation as President.<br><br>So what's the problem? Well, Bush has shown himself to be an avowed enemy of the U.S. Constitution--but the problem goes far beyond that. The larger part of the problem is that there are plenty of people in this country who are perfectly ready and willing to forego their constitutional guarantees in favor of what they view as a benevolent dictatorship. I submit as evidence the following graphic I received from my right-wing correspondent:"<br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>

[yesferatu]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Then go to your own thread about the declaration of martial law, and tell me what is the substantive difference between a civilian government declaring martial law, and a civilian government being taken over by the military.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The tyrant who would declare martial law as a means to grab more power, is quite different from a military coup whereby soldiers who are oath-bound to defend the constitution uses martial law as a <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>temporary</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> means of governance until the crisis is over. <br><br>Your assumption I am asking for a military coup in which a military dicatorship is installed is absurd. <br>And it is equally absurd to say Madsen is calling for that. <br><br>Quite simple idea: A military coup to oust a tyrant, and to force a "reboot" of democratically elected government. New, immediate elections is OBVIOUSLY the goal if a military were to defend against domestic enemies in power, and in defense of the constitution. <br>That you think I must have something else in mind is<br>assumptions. <br><br>Do I not understand that the current amerikan military is nowhere near this ideal? That it is completely enmeshed with the MIC?<br>Of coooooooooooooooooourse!!<br>Which is why I said this is wishful thinking. <br><br>Yet IF a few military leaders with a conscience were to aim for this goal and try to lead a coup, with an intent for the above ideal, you can bet I would support it. You sound like you would choose continuation of the current fascism, rather than risk it. <br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'd be really curious about your political orientation. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Did the above give you a better idea, or do I need to stick a label on me? Righties would call me a leftie, lefties would call me ignorant of the real issues.<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But who knows....a military takeover could happen. I think if it did they'd return ostensible civilian control rather quickly but by then the precedent is set. The line between government and military...already pretty fuzzy..is pretty much gone.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You agree a coup would not be so bad, but you would rather not have the fascists taken out because of some imaginary line blurred between government and the military?<br><br>This regime has already blurred and/or wiped out all the lines. A coup would be a correction, not a further blurring of anything. Sure, things would be different. Bad, good, no one, not you nor I could tell. If in the end, the reasons were in defense of the constitution against tyranny, then the results do not matter. Unless we consider the safety and security of our precious mortal asses more important than that risk. <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

Someone who can read German should please check out Der Krieg in Dunkeln. This is the book Madsen sites. The author is PROFOUNDLY anti-Islamic in outlook and has been warning Europeans of a vast network in German of Muslim Brotherhood operatives. The latest book is about CIA, KGB, MOSSAD and German intel as well and how they operate...but I can't find any references (in reviews and summaries which are badly translated by Google) to the allegations made by Madsen. In addition, Madsen talks about how Ultkoffe talked about MI6 efforts to tray Islam as radical and incompatible with Western democracy. Probably so...but since that is exactly what Ultkoffe himself believes, I don't get the statement. <br><br>The rest of Madsen's article is more insider info....blah blah...and a guy who phoned in a bomb threat on a plane. <br><br>I agree that security services manipulate Muslim Brotherhood...in fact I've gone to great pains to write about it. The question is whether we pin that all on Israel or look to the reality of where MB came from, and who has nurtured it since then. <p></p><i></i>

[rocco33]

The guy, who happened to be Israeli, did phone in a bomb threat in Southern Cal's smaller Long Beach Airport. Now if this were me, you, or any Muslim, this would've been on the cable stations for 2 or 3 days. But just like the dozens of Israeli intel operators caught filming tunnels, govt. buildings, attempting to breach nuclear facilities, burning down churches, involvement in school shootings, bribes, blackmail, treason, espionage, etc. How much you want to bet he doesn't get one single day of jail and is sent back to Israel pronto? <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But just like the dozens of Israeli intel operators caught filming tunnels, govt. buildings, attempting to breach nuclear facilities, burning down churches, involvement in school shootings, bribes, blackmail, treason, espionage, etc.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Love your source on that. Won't hold my breath though. <p></p><i></i>