America Will Finally Die Today

by **sunny** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:31 am

After years of abuse, neglect, and violence. Unless some brave soul stands up today in the Senate and pulls a Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, (<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/27/washington/27detain.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fR%2fRepublican%20Party" target="top">don't get your hopes up</a>) we will bury the coffin today. The House has already passed The Bush Torture Bill. <a href="http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll491.xml" target="top">Here</a> is the roll call vote. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/opinion/28thu1.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin Last week, the White House and three Republican senators announced a terrible deal on this legislation that gave Mr. Bush most of what he wanted, including a blanket waiver for crimes Americans may have committed in the service of his antiterrorism policies. Then Vice President Dick Cheney and his willing lawmakers rewrote the rest of the measure so that it would give Mr. Bush the power to jail pretty much anyone he wants for as long as he wants without charging them, to unilaterally reinterpret the Geneva Conventions, to authorize what normal people consider torture, and to deny justice to hundreds of men captured in error. These are some of the bill’s biggest flaws: Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted. The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret — there’s no requirement that this list be published. Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence. Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial. Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses. Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence. Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture. •There is not enough time to fix these bills, especially since the few Republicans who call themselves moderates have been whipped into line, and the Democratic leadership in the Senate seems to have misplaced its spine. If there was ever a moment for a filibuster, this was it. We don’t blame the Democrats for being frightened. The Republicans have made it clear that they’ll use any opportunity to brand anyone who votes against this bill as a terrorist enabler. But Americans of the future won’t remember the pragmatic arguments for caving in to the administration. They’ll know that in 2006, Congress passed a tyrannical law that will be ranked with the low points in American democracy, our generation’s version of the Alien and Sedition Acts. ****************** <a href="http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/09/27/leftists/index.html" target="top">NIE cites "leftists" groups as a terror threat</a>. By Glenn Greenwald. ****************** <a href="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/spineless-democrats-deserve-to-lose.html" target="top">Democrats deserve to lose</a>. ****************** And so, my fellow Americans, say goodbye to your country. Mourn her, or the dream of what she could have been. Gather your friends and family and hold a wake. Remember the good times we thought we had. Raise a glass to MLK for trying. Give a toast to the millions of protesters, resisters, outsiders, and freaks. At least we tried.

by **nomo** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:41 am

So that's it? Giving up, like that? I'm not buying it, Sunny. For the children's sake. Those assholes are not getting the last word.

by **postrchild** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:58 am

Well I think it has been dead for a few yrs now.....happened way back in Sept of 01. It is now being "revived" with the nice little addition of a small squarish mustache, neatly centered on the upperlip, just below the coke snorting nose.... Its over. I mean I wont quit standing up against it, but this battle is over. Now is when the "fun" starts. If this thing passes before the elections, you are gonna see illegal search and seizure become common place. The one's who used to label people as terror enablers, will be the same one goose stepping up to your door asking "Are you papers in order Mr. Jones?" Just wait. When noose is finished being tied, they will pull out the trap door and finally get the goddamn dictatorship they started 6 yrs ago. This is the worst possible thing they could have done. Not only do they not give a flying fuck about our constitution, but they have absolutely no regard for human rights. I cant believe we are EVEN DISCUSSING TORTURE! Whats "good torture"? "Acceptable torture"? This is a fucking joke right? Just an April fools joke many months too late? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>"So this is how Democracy falls......with thundering applause." <hr></blockquote> There is still a chance to turn this thing around but its getting smaller by the second folks.......we are in the 2 minute warning stage.

by **sunny** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:59 am

nomo, I'm not giving up on life, just the dream we once had of what America should be. I have children too, and grandchildren. I intend to love them and teach them about peace and justice. I intend to savor and enjoy every moment with them, as I always have, only now with more urgency. How do you propose we fight these thugs? We have no opposition party. Protests don't work. Media is closed to us. Voting has become an exercise in futility. We have written on the blogs and forums until we are blue in the face, sent articles to our friends and family, tried to push and persuade them. Just how do you propose we fight them? I am all ears, and I'm not being facetious. If legalized torture and suspension of habeus corpus does not spell the death of America, just what, in your estimation, would?

by **nomo** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:34 am

But life is what it's all about. I have no illusions about any country. We can beat them, as long as we stick together. Our ideals shouldn't be tied to some mystical ideas about nations or flags or religions. And I'm a firm believer in what goes around, comes around. Their torture laws will eventually turn around and bite them in the ass. I believe that. It's all I can do.

by **Et in Arcadia ego** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:41 am

I can't help but think of the hatred the German people had to sustain after WWII. I was talking to my wife late last night explaining the new Terror Bill and it's significance, explaining how when it's all said and done and this new Wermacht is overcome how we'll all be judged for letting this Government do what it's done.. Great and Terrible things are coming. ____________________ Some are born to sweet delight, some are born to endless night.

by **sunny** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:59 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Great and Terrible things are coming.<hr></blockquote> Yes, it's exciting in a dreadful kind of way. I'm not sure those of us alive today will see the final judgement of the New 'Murica. For now, we will have to adjust somehow to the new reality and carry on as best we can. A question: How do you all intend to prepare, to adjust, to carry on, with the full knowledge that this new reality will affect us?

by **vigilantwarrior** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:24 pm

Teach your children. They will know you did not go quietly, and that will give them strength. You are not alone. The world is with you, and the world is, after all the lies and measureless atrocities, as Schell says, "unconquerable".

by **bvonahsen** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>How do you all intend to prepare, to adjust, to carry on, with the full knowledge that this new reality will affect us?<hr></blockquote> If I had the money I'd get out, many are.

by **4911** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:39 pm

<img src="http://www.materials.unsw.edu.au/news/brittlefracture/titanic%20sinking.jpg"/> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=4911>4911</A> at: 9/28/06 10:39 am

by **postrchild** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:38 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm not sure those of us alive today will see the final judgement of the New 'Murica. For now, we will have to adjust somehow to the new reality and carry on as best we can.<hr></blockquote> This resounds with me as the problem with Americans' thinking. Adapt and adjust. Fight people! <blockquote>Quote:<hr>...Leave the country, most who have the money are <hr></blockquote> This also seems like a pussified way out. Well if you want to leave when the going gets tough, then good riddance. You dont deserve to enjoy the fruits of the end result. We will succeed, wether thru our grandchildren or theirs.

by **seemslikeadream** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:45 pm

Let America Be America Again by Langston Hughes Let America be America again. Let it be the dream it used to be. Let it be the pioneer on the plain Seeking a home where he himself is free. (America never was America to me.) Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed-- Let it be that great strong land of love Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme That any man be crushed by one above. (It never was America to me.) O, let my land be a land where Liberty Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath, But opportunity is real, and life is free, Equality is in the air we breathe. There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free." Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark? And who are you that draws your veil across the stars? I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart, I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars. I am the red man driven from the land, I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek-- And finding only the same old stupid plan Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak. I am the young man, full of strength and hope, Tangled in that ancient endless chain Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land! Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need! Of work the men! Of take the pay! Of owning everything for one's own greed! I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil. I am the worker sold to the machine. I am the Negro, servant to you all. I am the people, humble, hungry, mean-- Hungry yet today despite the dream. Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers! I am the man who never got ahead, The poorest worker bartered through the years. Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream In the Old World while still a serf of kings, Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true, That even yet its mighty daring sings In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned That's made America the land it has become. O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas In search of what I meant to be my home-- For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore, And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea, And torn from Black Africa's strand I came To build a "homeland of the free." The free? Who said the free? Not me? Surely not me? The millions on relief today? The millions shot down when we strike? The millions who have nothing for our pay? For all the dreams we've dreamed And all the songs we've sung And all the hopes we've held And all the flags we've hung, The millions who have nothing for our pay-- Except the dream that's almost dead today. O, let America be America again-- The land that never has been yet-- And yet must be--the land where every man is free. The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME-- Who made America, Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain, Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain, Must bring back our mighty dream again. Sure, call me any ugly name you choose-- The steel of freedom does not stain. From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America! O, yes, I say it plain, America never was America to me, And yet I swear this oath-- America will be! Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death, The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies, We, the people, must redeem The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers. The mountains and the endless plain-- All, all the stretch of these great green states-- And make America again!

by **dugoboy** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:49 pm

do those bills have retroactive power? should i begin discarding things? ___________________________________________ "BushCo aren't incompetent...they are Complicit!" -Me "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act" -George Orwell "When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it - always." -Mahatma Gandhi

by **postrchild** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:53 pm

Yeah I think they do have retroactivity....at least the parts about torture, so Bushco cant be hel accountable......but I wouldnt be surprised if they go knockin in/on doors that they haevn't been (leagally) "ABLE" to do

by **PeterofLoneTree** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:08 pm

I originally found this at John Aravosis' Americablog. It's by NanceGreggs at DU <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2543879">www.democraticunderground...32x2543879</a> "Hey, Fellow Americans, REMEMBER WHEN ...? "REMEMBER WHEN you displayed your flag on the front porch on the 4th of July, and you didn’t have to worry about whether it would be misinterpreted as support for a corrupt president and his administration? "REMEMBER WHEN ‘Support the Troops’ meant equipping our military with everything necessary for battle, instead of just being a catchy phrase that looked good on a bumper-sticker? "REMEMBER WHEN your tax dollars paid for things like improved education and social programs, instead of making Halliburton shareholders millionaires? "REMEMBER WHEN you watched movies about WWII, and it was the enemy who tortured captured American soldiers, instead of American soldiers torturing the people they’d allegedly ‘liberated’? "REMEMBER WHEN you heard something on the TV news or read something in a newspaper, and you didn’t have to go to the internet to find out just how much of it was fact, and how much of it was ‘spin’? "REMEMBER WHEN a politician was caught with his hand in the cookie jar and he resigned in disgrace, instead of excusing his own behaviour by claiming that his political opponents were equally as guilty of wrongdoing? "REMEMBER WHEN ‘Made in the USA’ labels on products were the norm, and not a total oddity? "REMEMBER WHEN ‘Made in the USA’ labels were actually made in the USA? "REMEMBER WHEN you hitchhiked through Europe as a teenager, and you DIDN’T have to replace the American flag on your knapsack with a Canadian flag in order to be a welcomed guest in a foreign country? "REMEMBER WHEN organized crime figures had to make phone calls from the corner phone booth, because they were the only people who had to worry about wire-taps? "REMEMBER WHEN you were considered to be a worker of value because you were an American with a good work ethic, and not because you were a Pakistani or an Indian who would do the same job ‘on the cheap’? "REMEMBER WHEN telling a fellow politician on the floor of the House to ‘go f*ck himself’ was considered behaviour unbecoming an elected official, instead of being accepted as the way a Vice President behaves himself? "REMEMBER WHEN you could pretty well count on the fact that if the president said it, it was based on sound intelligence and was probably true? "REMEMBER WHEN your president spoke in public, and his words weren’t the punch-line to late night TV-show jokes? "REMEMBER WHEN you could rely on your elected representatives to put your interests ahead of the corporations that filled their campaign coffers, or the lobbyists who gave them great basketball tickets? "REMEMBER WHEN you didn’t even KNOW what religion the people you voted for were, because it didn’t really matter? Remember when you didn’t know what party your neighbour belonged to, because that didn’t really matter either? "REMEMBER WHEN the pension you’d worked for your whole life wasn’t in danger of being wiped out by corrupt CEOs, assisted by respected accounting firms that made that corruption almost impossible to detect? "REMEMBER WHEN you could brag that as an American, you were guaranteed things like free speech and due process of law, without checking the nightly news to see whether those rights were still in effect? "REMEMBER WHEN the president upheld the law of the land, instead of coming up with ‘legal loopholes’ to support the idea that he’s above the law? "REMEMBER WHEN you could say, “I’m a proud American,” without qualifying it with a list of all of the things your government is doing that you’re not exactly proud of? "REMEMBER WHEN you saw news stories about people so poor they had to beg on the streets in order to feed their children, and you shook your head in disgust and thought, “What kind of uncivilized country would allow that to happen,” because it wasn’t your own country? "REMEMBER WHEN you actually thought that the people in charge of running your country were smarter than you were? "REMEMBER WHEN your parents worked all their lives to ensure you a better life, instead of worrying about how bad the life they’d be leaving their children might be? "REMEMBER WHEN the importance of clean drinking water and breathable air were unquestionable mandates, and not some crazy hippie agenda to be weighed against corporate profits? "REMEMBER WHEN questioning your government’s policies was seen as ‘participating in the process’, and not ‘giving aid and comfort to the enemy’? "REMEMBER WHEN the ‘enemy’ was a country or military force that posed a threat to American democracy, and not a nation of innocent civilians who whose destruction was dismissible as ‘collateral damage’? "REMEMBER WHEN your country went to war based on facts beforehand, instead of constantly-changing suppositions after-the-fact? "REMEMBER WHEN ‘patriotism’ was judged by your words and actions, and not by whether you were a member of the party currently in power? "REMEMBER WHEN the ‘American Dream’ was attainable through diligence and hard work, and not the luck of the ‘outsourcing’ draw? "REMEMBER WHEN profitable corporations were content with simple tax dodges, and didn’t have to have government subsidies as part of the bargain? "REMEMBER WHEN incredibly wealthy Americans bragged about their philanthropic work, instead of bragging about their tax cuts? "REMEMBER WHEN you went to the polls and voted, and didn’t have to rush home and watch the news in order to find out if your vote was counted? "REMEMBER WHEN the election of a president was considered the result of democracy in action, and not the result of Diebold executives doing the job they were expected to do? "REMEMBER WHEN you sang ‘God Bless America’ as a kid, and never thought you’d grow up to wonder if, in view of your country’s actions, asking God’s blessing was asking a bit too much? "I REMEMBER WHEN … and I wonder if these ideas will become ancient history by the time those of us old enough to recall them are dead and gone. "You might want to print this, and pass it down to your children. It could be worth a fair buck on ‘Antiques Roadshow’ someday – an odd document that can’t be verified as authentic, because the memories it conjures up are just too bizarre to be accepted as ever having been fact."

America Will Finally Die Today

America Will Finally Die Today

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Karma

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what will matter

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and the band played on

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Re: sunny please remember this

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