by StarmanSkye » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Dark:<br>Fer chrissakes, man -- Have you even READ the victim's published eyewitness testimonies? There were dozens of accounts of people who either saw the airliner's approaching and striking the towers they were in, or testimony of personal experience with DIRECT EVIDENCE of an airliner crashing into their building. The testimony of almost a dozen survivors out of about 200 who were killed in the crowded 78th floor skylobby when the Boeing's left wing crashed thru the space and then the vaporized fuel ignited is compelling. Your fixation on 'something else like pre-planted explosives' thesis is a dishonor to the lives of those who were killed, esp. if you haven't made a determined effort to get ALL the information you can. <br><br>There is simply NO WAY to account for the first-hand experience of the survivors and even the victims whose cell-calls were relayed after that tragic event who record intricate details consistent ONLY with aircraft impacts, except to posit mass-hallucination or that they were ALL complicit in a huge conspiracy to lie about the events that day -- WHY would they do that? The suggestion itself is absurd. How would you, how COULD you account for the evidence of explosive ignition of 10,000 gallons of jet fuel and the massive burns, injuries, decapitations, fires and aircraft-debris and aircraft-impact damage? Airplane parts were recovered that had ripped through the towers and exited the opposite sides. How do you account for the tremendous impacts that were reported where the buildings were displaced several feet, knocking people to the floors, as the buildings rocked back and forth for almost a minute accompanied by terrific sounds of deformed and broken framing members? -- Contrary to the absurd claim Reynolds made in the article you posted yesterday that was SO greviously flawed and contradicted in numerous instances by eyewitness testimony and evidence that it was actually painful to read something so flawed.<br><br>Reynolds makes a very few good points but IMHO there's something very wrong and deceptive about him, I think he's leading people astray with his highly emotive, insulting style of mock-debate. His 'argument' is mostly feel-good pap that is thin on critical thinking. He makes a mocking reference to CD-debunkers 'fitting facts around the policy' but that describes HIS method, based on proving his presumption --Otherwise, why would he exaggerate, take evidence and testimony out-of-context, argue strawman premises, misrepresent criticism, and simply ignore evidence that contradicts his thesis? <br><br>I've tried to adopt as neutral, objective, non-judgemental position as I could, suspending any firm opinion until I spent a minimum of 100 hours (about 50 hours in the last month) reviewing the arguments, reports, web-sites, witness and victim testimonies, theories and everything I could find -- at times I found myself dismissing something that contradicted a bias that I was developing (most dramatically, it was something that contradicted CD which I was leaning toward) but I caught myself, and forced myself to confront this tendency towards believing something based on emotion and NOT the facts.<br><br>While I can't rule-out CD, I have to acknowledge that I have NOT found anything that conclusively points towards it -- the evidence supports a mechanical-structural collapse of the towers aggravated by serious design-flaws, ie., the long-span floor-truss joists had NOT been fire-tested and were suspended by weak joist attachments that failed. Much of the NIST and FEMA reports covered-up many faults and flaws and design errors and building-code violations that contributed to the failure and tragedy. The witness testimony reports severe temperatures, floor-buckling, and serious structural failures -- NOT evidence for pre-positioned controlled explosions. As far as your thesis here of a a 'fake video' record of these impacts -- Chrissakes, you know there were literally HUNDREDS of people videotaping and photographing the towers the instant the south tower was struck, causing the identical building damage as the north tower impact. I'm surprised you would be taken-in so completely by such a seriously flawed premise.<br><br>Re: The aircraft wing's ability to punch-thru the exterior columns of WTC 1 and 2 -- The planes wings were estimated to have a significant percentage of the estimated 10,000 gallons of fuel each plane was carrying -- and without which computer simulations and calculations show the wings would likely NOT have been able to completely pierce the buildings' perimeter. But these impacts were NOT 'clean' cookie-cutter wing-shaped holes -- several column joint welds simply failed, the bolt fasteners sheared and top/bottom connections were broken by force of impact while other columns were simply punched-through, and aluminum-face cladding ripped and shredded while windows of course shattered. Numerous witness accounts describe office furnishings and work-stations and interior wall-partitions pushed across the floor-spaces by the moving mass of aircraft frame and wings and debris and into the core-area of both buildings. South tower witnesses observed office-workers in the north tower stumbling to the edge of the north-tower's gaping south and east holes at the impact site with hands over their eyes and mouths, obviously dazed and blinded and choking with smoke, simply falling right off the building.<br><br>Seriously -- Check-out these links to eyewitness testimonies to get a better grasp on what really DID happen to the WTC towers that day. (There are other collections also -- I recently posted a condensed selection detailing anomalous fire-danger in the elevators and ground-floor explosions on another thread you apparently didn't see).<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_northtower.html">www.mishalov.com/wtc_northtower.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_southtower.html">www.mishalov.com/wtc_southtower.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>On WTC 7 I am suspending judgement based on not enough info, and on the Pentagon I've already stated the evidence contradicts a full-size Boeing 767-200.<br><br>From Southtower links above:<br>--excerpts--<br><br>This is Stanley Praimnath describing what he saw after he foolishly returned to his 81st floor office after already having evacuated to the south tower ground lobby after the first plane struck and being assured the building was secure, everyone should return to their offices (by a security guard and intercom messages):<br>":And for no apparent reason in mid-sentence I just raised my head and looked to the Statue of Liberty and what I see is a big plane coming towards me. This plane is coming, eye level towards me. Eye contact. I'm seeing a big gray plane, with a red stripe, and I can still see it in my eyes now. I dropped the phone, screamed, dove under my desk and I don't know why I said what I tell you now. "Lord, you take over. I can't do this." <br>"And I don't know, I do not know, as God be my witness, and I'm a deacon in my Sunday school and church and I'm a Sunday school superintendent, I would not tell you a lie here. I don't know why I said it, but I screamed." <br>The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway." <br><br>78th floor skylobby, Judy Wein, Aon Corporation, on her way to evacuate the building after first tower struck, where she stopped to get more information, descibes the airplane impact (which killed or seripously injured most of the 100+ people waiting for the elevators), seeing fires in the elevator shafts:<br>"Ms. Wein cannot recollect any roar announcing the approach of the plane, just the explosive sound of the impact. The plane enters from 78th to 84th floor, from the south side. <br>"A bang," she said. "It wasn't like we heard engines coming. It was just the sound of the impact. There was a boom, an explosion." <br>The building sways, lunging Ms. Wein toward the ground. She lands on her right side, fracturing a bone in her lower arm, cracking three ribs and puncturing her right lung. But before she can regain her footing, the building sways again, lifting her up again and tossing her toward the express elevator. The impact of the plane had apparently knocked open the doors to the elevator shaft a bit, and as she fell toward them, she could see flames billowing up and down the shaft, a spot she terrifyingly thought she was headed. But she came to rest on the ground." <br>Astonishly, she describes taking a working elevator at the 40th floor:<br>"They (firefighters making their way up the stairs) told her to keep going down to the 40th floor, where there was an elevator bank. Her legs were trembling by the time she got there. She encountered two security guards and a firefighter, they told her to calm down. Not to rush. Take her time. But Judy just wanted to get out. <br>"An elevator came. Within another 10 minutes, they were outside. She was in the ambulance. The door was closed. She heard a noise. She turned to look. The south tower was coming down."<br><br>78th floor, Donovan Cowan, describes being in an open elevator at thr 78th floor skylobby when the plane struck, being buffetted for 15-20 seconds while jet-fuel fires surged in the elevator shaftways: Remarkably, he survived and escaped but his friend Doris Torres was severely burned and died in the hospital two days later:<br>"The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped. At the time, when this happened, the elevator was shaking and I thought it was moving. But actually, it never moved. So when it stopped, me and her were able to walk out of the elevator, like into the lobby. She said to me, she couldn't feel her feet. I can't walk. She said she was going to stay there. So I said all right, I was going to try to get some help."<br><br>78th floor, Kelly Reyher, describes the south tower rocking at the impact of the north tower being struck (!!!):<br>"On the scene in his office when the first plane hit the North Tower: ``Started at 100 and went to get coffee with a colleague of mine who didn't make it. And immediately felt the building rock and went to my office which faced the Empire State Building. The first impact. You could feel it rock in our building. So we ran to the window and that's when, we didn't know what happened but it was catastrophic. And you just froze for a second watching the flames come out. And then people started to fall out of the hole in the east side of the building. And what it looked like was it looked like that they were blinded by the smoke and couldn't breathe because their like hands were over their faces. They would just walk to the edge where the jagged floor was and just fall out. So I think that they were completely confused about where they were and what had just happened.'' <br><br>-- Seeing fire rage in the elevator shafts:<br>On his decision to try and go back upstairs and the moment she was in an elevator when the second plane hit his tower: ``I had decided that my Palm Pilot was up in my office and given the fire I saw I didn't think we were going to be back there any time soon so I wanted to have all my data. So as I was stepping into the elevator when the plane hit. And it just blasted me into the elevator, you sort of just smashed off the back and didn't realize what had happened. The doors had almost closed, or as much as I could tell, and it was just a complete firestorm. The elevator split at the seams, the floor blew up. You could just sort of look right through the corner of the elevator into the elevator shaft and it was just all fire. And the elevator was filling up with thick, black smoke; you really couldn't breathe." <br>--end--<br>Starman <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=starmanskye>StarmanSkye</A> at: 4/11/06 9:04 pm<br></i>
