Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff
The Charlie Rose Show aired on PBS December 7, 2006
Excerpt of Stephen F. Cohen's remarks
Charlie Rose (11:00): Help me understand all of this sir.
Stephen Cohen: I’m sort of an unlikely candidate…
Charlie Rose: Do you hear of any theories that you would dismiss because of your understanding of the players, or some that you would not believe because of your understanding of the players?
Stephen Cohen: The first thing I would say is, if this does not restore the study of Dostoyevsky to American universities, nothing else will …the second thing I want to say is: shame, shame, shame on the British and American media and press. From the moment this happened, they have violated every canon of objective journalism. Now they’re trying to make amends now, the New York Times in particular. But they have accused Putin - they have basically reversed jurisprudence and said, “Putin is guilty until he proves himself innocent”. They have printed this, they have literally said this, and this is a very bad lesson for us to teach the Russians, that we don’t believe in our own presumption of innocence.
The second thing I would say is, as the media points its finger towards Putin and his associates, you need to ask the question that every murder detective asks: Who had motive?
Charlie Rose (12:06): Ok, but before you…
Stephen Cohen: But wait, I’m going to tell you the answer.
Charlie Rose: But let me just say that it’s not the media that’s pointing the finger, it is the deceased who pointed the finger, and the media reporting it.
Stephen Cohen (12:15): First of all, we do know…with all respect to Yuri [Felshtinsky], when Yuri produces the Russian document that Litvinenko wrote…all we know is a man dying told two other men, who are two other men, Yuri and a man named [Alex] Goldfarb, that Putin did it.
Charlie Rose: A spokesman for [Boris Berezovsky]…
Stephen Cohen: Now, bear in mind that Litvinenko had accused Putin of every imaginable offense against mankind; not only blowing up buildings, to come to power in Moscow, but of having sex with young boys. He’s accused him of everything.
Charlie Rose: In fact he said he had pictures of him [Putin] too.
Stephen Cohen (12:55): Yeah, I think the most you can say for Mr. Litvinenko, is that he was a little indiscriminate in the accusations he made, to the point where people had ceased to take him seriously. He was a faded star.
Stephen Cohen (13:07): So now we come to motive. You always ask: Who had a motive, not only to kill this man, but as Ed [Jay Epstein] points out, to kill him in the way they did, not making him disappear, not killing him instantly, but a slow dramatic death for the media. The one person who had no motive was Putin - because it has been damaging to him beyond belief. (13:28) It has damaged him at home, and it has damaged him abroad. Therefore, therefore, leaving aside Ed’s theory, it’s only a theory, Ed doesn’t insist on it…
Edward Jay Epstein: It’s only a theory, a hypothesis…
Stephen Cohen: …there are reports that Litvinenko was dealing in polonium, and poisoned himself…but, leaving that aside, then the reason for this having happened was an operation against Putin (13:55). It’s clear to me. It was an operation run against Putin, probably with varying motives. One last point: if you study history, as Jack [Matlock] and I did, Jack and I can give you a list of what we used to call Cold War mysteries, things like this that have happened – not quite so terrible, but on the very eve of a breakthrough in Russia’s relations with the West. You can go back to the shoot down of the U-2; you can go down to the shoot down of the Korean airliner in 1983; you can go back to the – you [Jack Matlock] were probably in Moscow for Reagan for the arrest of Nicholas Danilov…to this day we don’t know who, but it was clearly an attempt to sabotage – I think – the relationship between Gorbachev and Reagan that was emerging.
There are people, powerful people, with vested interests, primarily in Russia but not only, who do not want a major rapprochement between Russia and the West. At the moment, the West doesn’t mean the United States, but Europe, and that’s why England was so important. (14:59) If you’re looking for motive, there it is. And then you begin to discuss these consequences for international politics, for the future of Russia, for Putin’s succession, that’s where the discussion begins.
Charlie Rose: Tell me an individual that did not want to see rapprochement between Russia and Europe (15:17)…an individual.
Stephen Cohen: But Charlie, when you study Russian politics, you don’t begin with individuals, you deal with factions. All of us know that there’s a powerful faction in Russian politics that wants Russian foreign policy oriented towards China and away from the United States; it wants Russia to become the citadel of the anti-NATO forces in the world, a NATO that’s moving in on Russia. If you had to pick the person, the people most associated with that, these names will mean nothing to anybody else – and I don’t want to defame them because it might not be entirely true – it’s the Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov and the either Deputy or Senior Chief of Putin’s Staff, a man by the name of [Igor] Sechin. Those are the names associated in Russia with this anti-Western orientation of foreign policy. Did they run this operation? I have no idea. But add just this one other thing: it is a fact, and I’ve heard these people talk about this, that there is an equally powerful group that under no circumstances wants to see Putin to leave office in 2008, as he is obliged to by the constitution, because they would be finished…
Charlie Rose (28:00): Last word to you Stephen, where does this go from here?
Stephen Cohen: The case, or the relationship?
Charlie Rose: The relationship. The case we know, we’ve gotten to hear from all…well, no, you tell me this.
Stephen Cohen (28:12): The poison that has killed Alexander Litvinenko has crept into international relations, that’s clear. The event is poisoning relations, particularly Russia’s relations with England, and that’s spilling over into the relationship with the United States. I guess I think that this case will never be solved, in the sense of conclusive evidence of what happened, and therefore each person with a vested interest and a different interpretation will come away from this case with its own political conclusions.
Stephen Cohen: What worries me is that we’re coming to a crucial moment in American-Russian relations. (28:46) In January, if Russia is to join the WTO, as Bush has now advocated, Congress has to remove this restriction on Russian trade with the United States that goes back to the Cold War – Jackson Vanik. But it’s going to become an occasion for bipartisan bashing of Russia.
In addition, the American Presidential campaign is now unfolding, and every leading contender has demanded that we toughen up our policy on Russia. This case can only propel that [trend] further, I think. Then we get back to an analysis of how we achieve for our national interests from Russia what we want, and that isn’t the way. So this is bad – bad for Putin, bad for the United States.
By the way, you notice, Bush hasn’t said a peep accusing Putin, he’s the only person in the entire world, I think, who has remained silent. Because he [Bush] needs Putin, he’s his partner, he’s his last claim to having a foreign policy legacy, and he doesn’t want to see Putin go down in a welter of charges that he’s a murderer.
‘This isotope has been observed to migrate upstream against a current of air,’... ‘and to translocate under conditions where it would appear to be doing so of its own accord.’
You will see that Bilderberg was not that interested in Russia in the 1990's, probably because Yeltsin was their pisshead-in-chief and was quite happy selling off Russian state assets at bargain prices for a shot of Vodka, and it would seem that Putin was also being groomed by Berezovsky.
But then Putin came to power in 2000, changed the plan, and is now taking back what was stolen.
The two organisations represented at Bilderberg are the Carnegies and the Moscow School of Political Studies.
The reason for Carnegie is self-evident in the name.
On the board of MSPS in 2005 was Mikhail Khodorkovsky before he was sent down. Sponsors of MSPS include Open Russia Foundation, which opened in 2001 in London, of all places. I wonder why London?
But who is on the board of ORF?
Mikhail Khodorkovsky
Dr Henry Kissinger
Lord Jacob Rothschild
According to the Yukos website, "The motivation for the establishment of the Open Russia Foundation was to foster openness, understanding, and integration between the people of Russia and the rest of the world."
Yeah, right!
One thing that does concern me though is that I think a strong Russia is required for Pike's WW3. According to Pike's plan Communism was supposed to be held in check until "the final cataclysm". I currently see Putin rebelling against the Rothschilds, the British Monarchy and their cronies. But I also see that it could also be part of the plan in strengthening Russia
irritant said...
Anyone who considers LLM as sleazy obviously isn't up to speed with what's going on in the London think-tank scene. I hasten to add that this applies equally to those on any part of the political spectrum.
My favourite piece of think-tank dodgyness (that is in the public domain) from the last few years was by Rob Blackhurst. He knocked out a piece in the New Statesman mentioning what was going on in the FPC while he was Communications Manager. In short an unnamed Russian businessman requested research biased against President Putin. IMHO it was highly impolitic of the FPC agreeing to do this when thier patron is our PM.
Presumably readers would like to guess which Russian businessman sponsored the research?
6:09 PM
My former employer, the Foreign Policy Centre (patron: Tony Blair), has accepted more than £100,000 from an unnamed Russian oligarch to establish a programme on Russian democracy. The money does not come directly; it is channelled through London PR companies presided over by a retinue of former new Labour special advisers. The PR people want to shift public sympathy away from Vladimir Putin, who is at odds with several oligarchs, and they are no doubt delighted that the project has led to a paper criticising Downing Street's closeness to the Russian president.
Alexei believes Dmitry Kovtun “would be never able of a murder”. He supposes Kovtun might have played a useful idiot for the real informants without anticipating it.
Alexei told the paper that Kovtun and Lugovoy knew themselves for more than 20 years. They had graduated from the same Moscow officers’ school, they were old pals. Kovtun came first as a lieutenant to Czechoslovakia, later as a captain to the German Democratic Republic (GDR). When the Russian troops left reunified East Germany, Kovtun stayed behind, deserted. In Hamburg he applied for asylum, lived the first years in an Asylum-seeker's home in Blankensee. Then Kovtun got acquainted to Marina W., a German Russian from Siberia know whose mother, a former psychologist, was very well-to-do. Alexei says they probably were in love, too, however, it was a matter for him to obtain a permanent stay approval from the authorities.
Asked to comment Kovtun’s business activity, Alexei smiled. To him his job title of a management consultant seemed too pompous, he called Kovtun "rather that one calls a windy profit-seeker”. The first years in Germany Kovtun had not worked at all, lived from social help. Between 2000 and 2002 he worked as a waiter in the Il porto restaurant, Grosse Elbstrasse, Hamburg. Besides, he was always in search of a big deal in export or import, but he failed every time, according to Alexei. If sometimes he had money, he invested it in alcohol or bought himself Gucci and Versace suits,
The paper’s interlocutor says Kovtun has never been a KGB agent as it has been lately over and over again maintained. "He is a show-off, one the mouth far bursts and deceives his surroundings by nice light. But nothing lies behind."
Berliner Zeitung quoted experts among German law enforcement officials as estimating that the dose of polonium-210 believed to have caused Litvinenko's death was worth about $25 million.
The German newspaper referred to speculation in the Russian press that Litvinenko could have been involved in plans by Chechen separatists to create a "dirty bomb" with the help of depleted radioactive materials. The reports said polonium-210 could have been transported illegally to London for the purpose.
"Europe’s attitude is weird. It looks like we’re sliding back to Cold War times.”
Question: I have no reason at all to blame anything on Berezovsky. My own life in politics was particularly active in the 1990s. I mean, I know Berezovsky. It would be a mistake to underestimate him. He is brilliant, he is smart. He thinks in strategic terms. Moreover, he is quite ruthless, and his ideas of morality are quite vague.
Newsweek Russia
December 11-17, 2006
GAIDAR: THEY TRIED TO KILL ME, BUT FAILED
An interview with Yegor Gaidar
Author: Leonid Parfenov
[Yegor Gaidar: "I remember what destabilization and chaos in a nuclear power are like - from the 1990s, from the crisis and collapse of the USSR. I know how unpredictable and dangerous it is. Needless to say, the Russian leadership doesn't want history to repeat itself."]
Question: How are you feeling, physically and psychologically?
After all, it's not easy to imagine what it must be like to survive an attempt on one's life.
Yegor Gaidar: Physically, I'm much better now... As for this "they tried but failed," it may sound comical but actually it isn't.
Question: You are convinced that it was a deliberate attempt on your life, aren't you?
Yegor Gaidar: That's the only conclusion.
Question: Litvinenko died on November 23. Had the attempt on your life been successful, another similar death the following day would have blown the scandal out of proportion. That was the plan, do you think? Or was it a coincidence?
Yegor Gaidar: Well, I've seen too much to believe in
coincidences.
Question: There are actually few theories on who might be involved. The pet theory of the Western media proposes that it was carried out by Russian secret services and, by implication, their superiors from the authorities...
Yegor Gaidar: I'm convinced that the Russian authorities (meaning the national leadership, that is) were the last who could want assassination of Russians in London and Dublin in late November. Incidents like that affect relations with the West, damage the image of the country, and foment the atmosphere of insecurity... Something like the atmosphere in Ukraine when the so called
Gongadze's affair was unfolding.
Question: The assumption is that it was done by retired
officers of secret services bent on avenging "Russia's belittlers." After all, there is no law saying that men like Kvachkov (the man under arrest for attempt on the life of Anatoly Chubais, head of RAO Unified Energy Systems) should restrict their activities to Moscow
and the Moscow region alone.
Yegor Gaidar: Right, but we do not have any evidence that it is not restricted to this area, do we? People like Kvachkov are criminals. Still, even the underworld is highly specialized. People who crack safes do not pick pockets and vice versa. It takes one set of skills to ambush an armored limo near Moscow, and a different set altogether to poison someone in Dublin.
Question: There is a the third theory - suggesting the
involvement of oligarchs. In short, involvement of Boris Berezovsky.
Question: I have no reason at all to blame anything on
Berezovsky. My own life in politics was particularly active in the 1990s. I mean, I know Berezovsky. It would be a mistake to underestimate him. He is brilliant, he is smart. He thinks in strategic terms. Moreover, he is quite ruthless, and his ideas of morality are quite vague.
Question: Practically everything is regarded from the
standpoint of 2008 these days. When I hear that the murders could disrupt stability in Russia, I can't help thinking that this is a reference to Operation Successor. What if it is disrupted? Do you think Putin may agree to a third term in an emergency? As a guarantee and a guarantor? Would somebody benefit from that?
Yegor Gaidar: I remember what destabilization and chaos in a nuclear power are like - from the 1990s, from the crisis and collapse of the USSR. I know how unpredictable and dangerous it is.
Needless to say, the Russian leadership doesn't want history to repeat itself. If there is anyone reckless enough to try this scenario, it would pose a serious threat to our country and to the world in general.
Question: Andrei Lugovoi, one of the last Russians to meet with Litvinenko, used to be your bodyguard. Any comments?
Yegor Gaidar: That's interesting indeed. Lugovoi was with the Federal Guard Service. He was with me when I was in the government. I resigned from the government in January 1994 and bodyguards were recalled. I knew that Lugovoi found a job with Berezovsky's security structures in the mid-1990s. So I wasn't surprised to hear that Lugovoi and Lukashenko knew each other.
Question: Now that all this has come to pass, would you perhaps like to ask him something?
Yegor Gaidar: No. If he wants something revealed, he will tell it... I believe that Lugovoi was framed, but that's only guesswork of course. I have no evidence.
Question: What are you going to do now? By the way, no information is available on the outcome of the official
investigation. It is only known that the Union of Right Forces intends to run an investigation on its own.
Yegor Gaidar: Getting to the root of the matter would have been nice, but that's not what I consider important. I'll keep working. Life goes on, you know. I don't intend to dedicate what remains of my life to seeking out whoever tried to poison me in Dublin.
Translated
"Who told you that the contamination took place on Nov. 1? It took place much earlier, on Oct. 16," Lugovoi was quoted as saying by the paper. Lugovoi is himself undergoing radiation checks in a Moscow clinic.
Litvinenko, 43, a former Russian agent and a Kremlin critic, died Nov. 23 of poisoning from polonium-210.
Lugovoi supported his claim by saying that he and Litvinenko visited a London-based security firm where traces of polonium were later found only in mid-October, but did not go there on Nov. 1, meaning that the contamination couldn't have taken place on that day.
Lugovoi's comments echo those made by another associate of Litvinenko, Russian businessman Dmitry Kovtun, who claimed in an interview with Germany's Spiegel TV that he must have been contaminated during meetings with Litvinenko and Lugovoi in London in mid-October.
Meanwhile, German investigators are also probing Kovtun on suspicion that he may have illegally handled radioactive material. German authorities have found traces of polonium-210 in locations visited by Kovtun before he traveled to London on Nov. 1.
They say Kovtun flew to Hamburg from Moscow on Oct. 28 and departed for London on Nov. 1. Traces of polonium-210 have been confirmed in the passenger seat of the BMW car that picked up Kovtun from the Hamburg airport.
That makes German officials believe that Kovtun already was contaminated with polonium-210 when he arrived in Hamburg _ but how that happened is unclear.
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