Cannonfire is leaving

[sunny]

Seamus OBlimey

And this is a very interesting thread even if it's not what you intended.

Thanks.

Oh, it is ever thus. If CD gets mentioned in a thread even tangentially, it's on.

'paedophile rights campaigner'

Good Lord, the end is near.

[erosoplier]

(I'll take that as a green light to crap on some more about CD Sunny!)

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Ah, Finnish, yes that's right.

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Back to what InfernalOptimist wrote:

It [the question "how fast should the buildings have fallen?"] kind of depends on how much energy is absorbed to snap the floors from what's holding them up. So assuming a normal world the answer is: a lot slower.

But it's not merely about snapping the floors free from whatever is holding them up. If it was just about snapping floors from their supports then the external structural framework would have peeled off like a banana, and the internal framework would have been left standing. A collapse scenario is about vertically crushing down the structure that holds all of the floors up, including the core. This takes a certain amount of energy, and every bit of force that directly contributed to the crushing down of the internal structure would slow the progress of the falling top section. Or in other words, every bit of vertical upward resistance provided by the intact structure underneith would slow the progress of the falling top section.

Only if the WTC1 tower (the most extreme example) had the structural integrity of a house of cards could it have collapsed at near free-fall speed under the weight of the falling 12 story top section. That is the only way. The question is, did WTC1 have the structural integrity of a house of cards? Do houses of cards survive gale force winds? Given the observed amount of time it took for the tower to fall, conservation of momentum alone rules out collapse as the cause, or so some have calculated. Every extra tiddle of structural integrity/vertical upward support for the mass of the building would have slowed the pace of its fall. And there is little about the structure of the WTC towers that gives us reason to believe that the structural integrity/upward vertical support component would not have provided some highly significant amount of resistance to the falling mass of the 12 story top section. This would slow the rate of fall to an extent far removed from free-fall speed.

Again, imagine that the 12 story top section weighed 3 or more times the total weight of an entire tower - only then could you get a collapse event similar to the one witnessed on 9/11. Except that still wouldn't explain the 90+% conversion of concrete into cloud.

[Vigilant Guardian]

However since we have proved that mininukes were used (as in Bali - see Viall's essay on this, where he shows that the only source for this weapon is a nuclear lab in Israel), then we know for a fact that U.S. and/or Israeli military were intimately involved in the operation. Nobody else could do it.

rrapt, you are funny!

As for all the science stuff going on here - I've looked into it, I have common sense, but I guess I'm just too lazy to REALLY get into the science - my guess is the collapses were anomolous, something more there than gov. admits. But to blatantly defy physics in broad daylight CDs that can be scientifically proven from the video record? And only so many scientists catch on? In roughly the same proportions to overall scientific community as the political and elite revisionists have to their communities? (that is, just enough to seem viable)? When we've seen so much disinfo, so many red herrings, stepped in so many honeytraps?

I've suspected a while the CD theory may be the ultimate honeytrap we've not noticed as we got distracted with the Pentamissile and no planes and whatnot. But then again, three collapses...
How can I still be a fence-sitter on such an issue?
Please, no one spout formulas at me. I ignore those. need to go do my own research...

[Wombaticus Rex]

I have to agree with nomo, if you're dumb enough to be a Mormon, your conclusions can't be taken seriously.

Overall, this was a fascinating thread and I agree with everyone.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

[
As for all the science stuff going on here - I've looked into it, I have common sense, but I guess I'm just too lazy to REALLY get into the science - my guess is the collapses were anomolous, something more there than gov. admits. But to blatantly defy physics in broad daylight CDs that can be scientifically proven from the video record? And only so many scientists catch on? In roughly the same proportions to overall scientific community as the political and elite revisionists have to their communities? (that is, just enough to seem viable)? When we've seen so much disinfo, so many red herrings, stepped in so many honeytraps?

I've suspected a while the CD theory may be the ultimate honeytrap we've not noticed as we got distracted with the Pentamissile and no planes and whatnot. But then again, three collapses...
How can I still be a fence-sitter on such an issue?
Please, no one spout formulas at me. I ignore those. need to go do my own research...

Absolutely do the research, VG. But don't get lost. It is EASY. (So I'll spout once more.)

9/11 is so simple to expose and only having too much info to sort out stirred up with disinfo prevents the still uncertain from seeing the obvious hoax:

Any junior high school physics teacher can prove the controlled demolition of the three WTC buildings based on the fall times with the help of Sir Isaac Newton.

The fall times were nearly identical to a free fall through thin air, like the poor people that jumped to their deaths. THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE -- Unless the buildings were blown up...which visual evidence confirms with steel beams shot hundreds of feet horizontally and everything in the buildings nearly atomized.

This law of physics is called the Conservation of Momentum.

Don't fall for the muddling disinformation clouding this stark, simple, IRREFUTABLE, and even intuitive truth.

This is the Achilles heel of the inside job cover-up and why Manuel Garcia put out that rediculous paper claiming "the buildings shattered" and fell to the ground all of a sudden. Y'know, like a plate glass window instead of a quarter mile-high battleship which was tremendously overdesigned to withstand a 600 mph plane hit of the same size AND a 130 mph hurricane at the same time.

It is so...simple. And this is why so many have missed it.

But TPTB have known this from the beginning and been misdirecting us to prevent our realizing it until it was too late and our troops were stuck in the sand and our treasury emptied into Halliburton and Carlyle Group.

Want to see evidence of how many are in on the cover-up?

The english language spooks in countries besides the US are in on the cover-up. Australia is a close partner with the Pentagon/CIA military-industrial-media complex and is essentially a key southern hemisphere US military base.

Here is an LA Fire Department's mirror of a webpage from the The University of Sydney's Department of Civil Engineering with utter disinformation in a diagram of the Twin Towers construction.

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-0911_WTC/UniversityofSidney/100801_UofSidney_EngineeringAspects.htm

Look at the graphic below and notice in the upper right-hand corner the rediculous dismissal of the inner core's 47 support beams supposedly because they are holding up the elevators!!
quote:
"The central core is not part of the main structural system of the building due to the enormous load it bears in supporting the elevator system."

TOTAL BULLSHIT! Gee, why would they say that? That...ain't...science.




Yet the same webpage has these photos showing heavy stuctural materials being shot horizontally hundreds of feet in OBVIOUS high-power explosions, especially the second one on the bottom:






*BOOM* Any questions?

[Wombaticus Rex]

How can I still be a fence-sitter on such an issue?
.

No clue, but if I answer that question for myself, I'll see if the solution works for you, too. Too much I don't know.

[Wombaticus Rex]

This is the Achilles heel of the inside job cover-up and why Manuel Garcia put out that rediculous paper claiming "the buildings shattered" and fell to the ground all of a sudden. Y'know, like a plate glass window instead of a quarter mile-high battleship which was tremendously overdesigned to withstand a 600 mph plane hit of the same size AND a 130 mph hurricane at the same time.

Thanks for the reminder on that, Hugh, that was one of the most surreal articles I've read in ages.

[Vigilant Guardian]

Wombat, right on. Hugh, that's precisely what I meant. scroll to bottom...

[Gouda]

Once we've successfully proven that the towers collapsed due to controlled demolition, I suppose a few scapegoats will have to be found. The political-financial establishment will be glad to help with that.

It's one thing to prove the physics, and another to uncover the parapolitical links implicating the whole political-economic system and its most powerful drivers. Not that both can't be done, but by the looks of it, there are too many of us putting all our eggs in a very, very small CD basket, praying they hatch. That just simply ain't gonna work.

***

Re: Hopsicker - didn't Amanda Keller recant her account of her Life and Times with Atta?

[Gouda]

Yet, as Mae Brussel might say, regardless of the political or religious orientation of the world trade centers, if the towers were rigged beforehand, we ought to know it and the perps brought to justice. Though she would have probably followed the spook-dusted money instead.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Once we've successfully proven that the towers collapsed due to controlled demolition, I suppose a few scapegoats will have to be found. The political-financial establishment will be glad to help with that.

The Powers That Be can never never ever admit to the contolled demolition of the WTC because then they'd have to admit that they knew all along as they went ahead and eliminated the Constitution, waged wars of aggression, and set up torture gulags.

It's the biggest cover-up the US government has ever done and will remain so since motivating the military to go get oil is considered much more important than fooling a bunch of civilians. Social stability is Job Two next to the primary task of having a functioning military-intelligence community. After all, the MIC is what keeps the civilians in line!

This is why infowar repressions are being considered such as McCain's proposal to hold ISP providers liable for what people write on the internet. Utterly bizarre but indicative of the kind of 'solutions' to the 9/11 truth problem that are on the table.

This is even bigger than the murder of JFK and that is being covered up by TPTB along with the LIHOP of the 'first' Pearl Harbor.

No, it is up to us to spread the word as best we can to have the sociological effect that Truth About False Flag Terrorism inevitably has - a more critical questioning of offered cover stories and national myths.

[Gouda]

No, it is up to us to spread the word as best we can to have the sociological effect that Truth About False Flag Terrorism inevitably has - a more critical questioning of offered cover stories and national myths.

Yes. But putting CD at the center of such pedogogy can not work, I fear - it ends up the be all and end all - we are seeing the proof of this already. The history of false flags and the power of national myths exist within and generate a much wider systemic context of power, economy, elitism. Just as it is a shame for Chomsky and Cockburn to narrow-mindedly snub the systemic reality of false flags and the values and strengths of parapolitical conspiracy inquiry, it is a shame CD proponents blind themselves to the wider socio-economic forces which led to their collapsed towers - and they do not seem to recognize the power of a much broader radical social activism. Neither camp seek bases of unity vs. the corp-mil-intel complex. It's too much damned ego.

We know what constipates Cockburn and Chomsky, but what accounts for the single-minded zeal of CD proponents?

[orz]

Any junior high school physics teacher can prove the controlled demolition of the three WTC buildings based on the fall times with the help of Sir Isaac Newton

Yeah, all those thousands of CD-theory-supporting high school physics teachers are just getting their banners ready and will be marching on Washington with the irrefutable obvious proof of CD aaaaaany day now.

But TPTB have known this from the beginning

Evidently not right from the beginning or they wouldn't have bothered demolishing the buildings in a ludicrously risky, over-complicated and high school physics provable way for NO APPARENT REASON. [/quote]

[Iroquois]

We know what constipates Cockburn and Chomsky, but what accounts for the single-minded zeal of CD proponents?

This may be mainly perception from those who are not proponents of CD. All of the pro CD people that I know personally also consider the broader parapolitical forces that would have made such an operation possible as well as the history of false flag operations and other forms of social and political conspiracy used to foment war extremely important.

Personally, I don't see how one could grasp the significance of the towers being brought down by pre-set explosives and not feel the need to understand the political context that would make such a thing possible. There were bank offices and intelligence agency offices in those towers. Those sorts would not have had trivial security.

And, anyone who is convinced that CD brought the towers down would likely be (in every case that I know of) just as certain that even if the top levels of government were not involved in that aspect of the operation, they had to have known that after the fact. As Hugh Manatee Wins points out, that undermines the justification given for the wars that followed. Lying a nation into a costly war is big time treason.

The few that limit their public arguments to CD likely do so because that is the argument that they feel most qualified to make and would not want to sabotage that argument by discussing things publicly that they have little background in. Let those with decades of experience following money trails and investigating complex social webs of the parapolitical elite do the rest.

[isachar]

To understand how CD occured, one concentrate on the massive cores of the two WTC's. These cores were double to triple redundant in terms of their design loads. Even if one gives NIST all of its dubious points and accepts its backwards curve-fit computer simulation of temps inside the WTC's prior to collapse, NIST offers no explanation for how the remainder of the core below the points of initial failure literally moved out of the way.

Yet all photographic evidence and videos during and after collapse show the concrete (primarily in the floors) was literally turned to powder and expressed into the air. Not much weight added there. Yet additional steel, debris, drywall and office contents were heaved/ejected over the side, lessening loads there. So, you have greatly reduced mass from what the cores held for 35-some years, with the only added force of downward momentum (gravity) acting on the remainder.

Quite simply, the remaining core structure of both Towers could not have failed catastrophically without some sort of highly energetic heat-producing source of assistance.

Then, of course, there's building 7, and the documented swiss-cheese like disintegration by eutectic reaction found on some of the structural steel members, analysis of which was published in the Journal of Materials, M and M. There's also the 'meteorite' of fused metal/debris recovered from the basements of the WTC's being stored in a hangar at Kennedy airport. These two pieces of evidence are Exhibits A and B for future charges of mass murder and treason that would obtain from a valid forensic, fire, and criminal investigation of the events of that day.

It matters little what kind of assistance facilitated the cores collapse since any kind of external assistance means elements of the Bush admin were complicit in the attacks.

Along with all the other evidence of their complicity pre and post-attack, the case is overwhelming.