"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

[MacCruiskeen]

I believe that this was a mass murder carried out by one or at most two extreme-right gunmen, designed to traumatise and intimidate a small and still remarkably egalitarian country (ruled by social-democrats who would count as extreme-left in the US), which has so far managed to resist the ravages of neoliberalism (protofascism) to a surprisingly large extent, not least thanks to its independent oil wealth.

Unlike you, but just like most of the Norwegian populace, and many in the Norwegian media, and indeed the Norwegian Labour government (who have quickly instituted a public inquiry) I can as yet see no rational explanation for the Readiness Troop's interminable dawdling, or for the shocking and demonstrably untrue pretence that Norway is a helpless and helicopterless Teletubbyland.

I suspect that Breivik may well have had sympathisers and even practical helpers within the not-insignificant extreme-right-wing milieu in Norwegian and possibly even foreign military circles. That might go some way towrads explaining the dawdling, for a start.

I was under the impression that you felt that someone in the police chain of command had possibly affected the outcome of the incident by deliberately disrupting the normal response of the police in some way.

Yes, I do suspect precisely that. So now lecture me about life on the edges of Europe, of which you clearly have extensive & profound first-hand knowledge, and decry the evils of "conspiracy theory" (sic), and tell me how I'm just like someone who thinks no massacre took place at all, or who suspects Elvis might have been kidnapped by Martians, and then sigh ostentatiously at the vulgar foolishness of those incorrigible nutjobs who would ever distrust any police or army officer anywhere, even in quaint old harmless 100%-social-democratic Norway.

[barracuda]

I'm saying it is a fucking outrage that requires a full explanation.

If that's all you're saying then I sort of agree. I'm not sure if I consider it an outrage, but I think it deserves to be investigated.

Well done. We've really been in near agreement throughout the entire discussion, and didn't really know it.

[Searcher08]

My mistake, then Mac. I was under the impression that you felt that someone in the police chain of command had possibly affected the outcome of the incident by deliberately disrupting the normal response of the police in some way. If you are simply saying it's a shame the response couldn't have been faster, then I have no argument with that.

False dichotomy.

I'm not saying it is a shame. I'm saying it is a fucking outrage that requires a full explanation. Those who have gone to extreme lengths to dismiss this outrage in order to protect their own meta-analyses of this event quite frankly disturb me.

Who is doing that?
Of course I agree it's outrage that it took that long - I cant imagine anyone on this form who wouldnt. I myself find it really bizarre that people do a 'pick n mix' regarding possibilities - and get real riled when someone questions that, particularly when a part of it is just (America vs Scandinavian) cultural imperialism.

[hanshan]

...

My mistake, then Mac. I was under the impression that you felt that someone in the police chain of command had possibly affected the outcome of the incident by deliberately disrupting the normal response of the police in some way. If you are simply saying it's a shame the response couldn't have been faster, then I have no argument with that.

False dichotomy.

I'm not saying it is a shame. I'm saying it is a fucking outrage that requires a full explanation. Those who have gone to extreme lengths to dismiss this outrage in order to protect their own meta-analyses of this event quite frankly disturb me.

Who is doing that?
Of course I agree it's outrage that it took that long - I cant imagine anyone on this form who wouldnt. I myself find it really bizarre that people do a 'pick n mix' regarding possibilities - and get real riled when someone questions that, particularly when a part of it is just (America vs Scandinavian) cultural imperialism.

Indeed.





...

[stickdog99]

Who is doing that?

Some folks have tried to justify the delay as perfectly reasonable and acceptable give the events of the day and backwardness of Norway.

Some folks have gone so far as to pretend that the police's story is eminently reasonable and that it is perfectly understandable that:

1) it took 20 minutes for the local cops to be informed that kids were being shot right and left (even though several kids' parents report learning about with 1-2 minutes),

2) it took another 11 minutes after that for the local cops to request backup (now we are 31 minutes in the crisis).

3) it took the local cops another 25 minutes from when they say they were first informed (20 minutes into the crisis), to get their asses over to the shore opposite of Utoya, and

4) it took the local cops another 33 minutes after that to traverse the 600 meters from the shore opposite Utoya to Utoya, with kids getting murdered by a madman and rescued by civilians right in front of them all the while.

Many of these same folks have endeavored to drive into my thick, unyielding skull that:

1) Norway is just like that,

2) Norwegians are rightfully proud of the fact that they are just like that,

3) police forces are just like that,

4) it is good that police forces are just like that,

5) everybody was on vacation,

6) everybody not on vacation was understandably in the throes of panic and chaos because of the earlier bombing, and

7) you would have to have a John Wayne fetish to think otherwise.

I strongly disagree. And what I have been trying to explain in vain since the last thread veered into a ditch is that my strong disagreement has nothing to do with my still agnostic meta-analysis of this horror's singular or non-singular culprit(s).

[MacCruiskeen]

Thanks for that, stickdog. Very well said. The wonder is that it still needs saying.

So: Norway's elite emergency-response SWAT-style Readiness Troop has 36 helicopters at its disposal, and not just one unusable and unstaffable one, as was pretended. (It would be good if this thread could now belatedly get back on-topic.) Does Norway's elite Readiness Troop, in addition to its 36 helicopters, also have access to planes that can land on water? It's late here, so I'm going to look this up tomorrow, if the information is available online to mere mortals.

[Burnt Hill]

Who is doing that?

Some folks have tried to justify the delay as perfectly reasonable and acceptable give the events of the day and backwardness of Norway.

Some folks have gone so far as to pretend that the police's story is eminently reasonable and that it is perfectly understandable that:

1) it took 20 minutes for the local cops to be informed that kids were being shot right and left (even though several kids' parents report learning about with 1-2 minutes),

2) it took another 9 minutes after that for the local cops to request backup (now we are 29 minutes in the crisis).

3) it took the local cops another 25 minutes from when they say first informed (20 minutes into the crisis), to get there asses over to the shore opposite of Utoya, and

4) it took the local cops another 33 minutes after that to traverse the 600 meters from the shore opposite Utoya to Utoya, with kids getting murdered by a madman and rescued by civilians right in front of them all the while .

Many of these same folks have endeavored to drive into my thick, unyielding skull that:

1) Norway is just like that,

2) Norwegians are rightfully proud of the fact that they are just like that,

3) police forces are just like that,

4) it is good that police forces are just like that,

5) everybody was on vacation,

6) everybody not on vacation was understandably in the throes of panic and chaos because of the earlier bombing, and

7) you would have to have a John Wayne fetish to think otherwise.

I strongly disagree. And what I have been trying to explain in vain since the last thread veered into a ditch is that my strong disagreement has nothing to do with my still agnostic meta-analysis of this horror's singular or non-singular culprit(s).

stickdog-
Its really easy to assume a conspiracy in place to explain the events in Norway.
Its a bit harder to consider all the possibilities that may have contributed to the delay, but there is too much that remains unknown about the situation not to.
That doesnt mean that those who choose to be considerate are apologists.

You may be doing yourself a disservice by being too strongheaded in your pov.

[barracuda]

1) it took 20 minutes for the local cops to be informed that kids were being shot right and left (even though several kids' parents report learning about with 1-2 minutes),

Please clarify. Are you saying the parents knew 1 - 2 minutes after the attack began, or 1 - 2 minutes after Breivik arrived at the island at 17:07? What is your source for this?

It makes a difference in the timeline which tick mark you are referencing. I assume you are using the Wikipedia timeline, which states that Breivik arrived on the island at 17:07 and the police learned about the shooting at 17:27. So unless the phone calls occurred at exactly the moment he arrived on the island, your statement above is misleading and probably incorrect.

2) it took another 9 minutes after that for the local cops to request backup (now we are 29 minutes in the crisis).

According to the wiki timeline: "17:27: The local police district in Buskerud learn about the shooting, and three minutes later the police in Oslo are informed.". Then : "17:38: Northern Buskerud police district ask Oslo police district for assistance.[15] Beredskapstroppen (the Contingency Platoon) is dispatched from Oslo to Utøya.[10]"

3) it took the local cops another 25 minutes from when they say first informed (20 minutes into the crisis), to get there asses over to the shore opposite of Utoya, and

Again, they were not informed the instant Breivik arrived on the island. Wiki: "17:52: The first local police car arrives at Tyrifjorden". Where are you getting these figures?

[stickdog99]

My POV is not that there had to be some big conspiracy, but only that the cops fucked up and are lying through their teeth about it.

And anyone who goes to extreme lengths to justify the cops' indefensible delay simply to quell any suspicions about this event is pissing on the graves of the children who where brutally murdered during this delay, IMHO.

[Nordic]

Fair enough, but are we having these forty page conversations about the issue simply because we feel the police weren't quite as effective as they should have been? If so, then I agree 100%. I wish entirely that the shooter could have been stopped as soon as humanly possible so that every life that could have been saved, was. But that's obviously not why we are discussing this.

Speak for yourself, please.

wait a sec, are you saying that the only reason you've been calling people "apologists for ze kops" etc. was not because you thought the delayed response was due to inside shenanigans, and that all you've been doing was bemoaning the delay? seriously?

*

stickdog did the same thing in the peak oil post. the exact same thing. i can't diagnose this except to say that he creates a lot of hurt feeelings, anger, and drama that in the end turns out to have been wholly unnecessary.

it's a real waste of energy and time and is distracting as hell.

[stickdog99]

1) it took 20 minutes for the local cops to be informed that kids were being shot right and left (even though several kids' parents report learning about with 1-2 minutes),

Please clarify. Are you saying the parents knew 1 - 2 minutes after the attack began, or 1 - 2 minutes after Breivik arrived at the island at 17:07? What is your source for this?

The published text message article said that the girl told her mom about the ongoing shooting at 17:10. Let's give her one minute further to get through to 911. So subtract 4 minutes throughout if you wish. I'm pretty sure that the police were informed multiple times within this 4 minutes (twitter accounts were), but I'll give you these 4 minutes. They make no difference to anything I have said.

2) it took another 9 minutes after that for the local cops to request backup (now we are 29 minutes in the crisis).

According to the wiki timeline: "17:27: The local police district in Buskerud learn about the shooting, and three minutes later the police in Oslo are informed.". Then : "17:38: Northern Buskerud police district ask Oslo police district for assistance.[15] Beredskapstroppen (the Contingency Platoon) is dispatched from Oslo to Utøya.[10]"

I made a mistake. It was an 11 minute delay, not a 9 minute one. So add back 2 minutes here (now fixed above).

[stickdog99]

Fair enough, but are we having these forty page conversations about the issue simply because we feel the police weren't quite as effective as they should have been? If so, then I agree 100%. I wish entirely that the shooter could have been stopped as soon as humanly possible so that every life that could have been saved, was. But that's obviously not why we are discussing this.

Speak for yourself, please.

wait a sec, are you saying that the only reason you've been calling people "apologists for ze kops" etc. was not because you thought the delayed response was due to inside shenanigans, and that all you've been doing was bemoaning the delay? seriously?

*

stickdog did the same thing in the peak oil post. the exact same thing. i can't diagnose this except to say that he creates a lot of hurt feeelings, anger, and drama that in the end turns out to have been wholly unnecessary.

it's a real waste of energy and time and is distracting as hell.

[MacCruiskeen]

I want to request that Nordic, hanshan, and barracuda stop posting in this thread, as long as they have nothing more productive to contribute than incessant timewasting egotistical information-free droppings along the lines of "I feel this" and "I feel that" and "yay, team" and "europeans are hobbits" and "everyone makes mistakes" and "somebody said something wrong elsewhere that pissed me off". The Oslo thread is there for that.

This thread is about the shockingly delayed response to the Utöya massacre -- now acknowledged and the subject of a public inquiry in Norway -- and about the Readiness Troop's ability or inability to fly there quickly by helicopter or otherwise.

Thanks for anything from anyone that truly contributes to our knowledge or understanding of this topic (the topic of this thread). Anything else is trolling.

[Nordic]

I'd love to agree with you.

[Nordic]

And now ......