Critical Thinking, reductionism, epistemology RI megathread

[Belligerent Savant]

But maybe you haven't really been reading the thread that closely. By any measure I can think of, she has been promoting "teach the controversy". It's her responsibility to know the politics of the examples she cites to bolster her position, and a criticism of those citations is, not unfairly, a criticism of the Republican Christian right-wing. Those are her sources, man. Nobody forced her hand to promote them in support of her politics.

I was posting them to show another side - you automatically believe the sources you WANT to believe and reject the other side based on the source. You are so attached to this bias that you attribute the worst possible motives to anyone who goes near what you don't like. That is a problem. You will not admit that you don't actually know the truth of the situations of the people who were fired. I am not arguing about whether or not the reasons given for their dismissal are justified, I'm arguing that we don't KNOW the reasons for their dismissal.

This brings to mind the immortal teachings of that great master of wisdom- Donald Rumsfeld:

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. ”

I believe you need permission to use my sig...

The unknown unknowns. Things we don't know that we don't know. Anyone good with pie charts? It'd be interesting to see some opinions on how large the "unknown unkowns" slice would be compared to the "known knowns" or "known unknowns"

Do we know more than we know we don't? Or do we know less than we don't know we don't?

Cue mind explosion.

[American Dream]

^ ^

fresh flame bait from the critical thinker. anyone?

*

vk-

I really don't know you well, but I'm left wondering whether your complaints about me are based on principles which you wish to uphold in general, whether they represent a means for furthering partisan sensibilities or something else- I'm not entirely sure.

Even though I am annoyed by some of your maneuvers, I have chosen not to feed the fire and I will also choose to give you the benefit of the doubt right now and throw out an invitation to you to talk about this. If there are some issues which you feel need to be resolved, then feel free to contact me- either here on this thread, or by pm.

AD

[MacCruiskeen]

AD, you have a deeply annoying habit of niggling and smirking incessantly at other people (often by means of crap cartoons), then going all disingenuously innocent and shocked-shocked and who-me? as soon as you're called out on it, before finally issuing a lengthy questionnaire or homework assignment as a means of assuaging any doubts you personally may have about your interlocutors' good intentions and intellectual credentials.

If I am being in any way unfair to you, then I would like to offer you the opportunity to set the record straight by submitting to me -- by Friday noon latest -- a 10.000-word essay, entitled "Why AD Is One Totally Ace Undeceived Motherfucking Critical Thinker, While Brainless Saps Like YOU Clearly Believe A Beardy Guy Made The Universe In Six Days Flat".

Should you fail to do so, then this failure (or refusal) will speak for itself, and I will feel entitled to respond henceforth exclusively with crap cartoons about flies in matchboxes, brains in aspic, dominies in anarchist drag, boffins-a-gogo, and clods with delusions of grandeur.

Can't say fairer than that.

[American Dream]

Mac, do you think it's ok to believe that certain ideas are ridiculous?

[Canadian_watcher]

^ speaking for myself, I think that question comes pretty close.

[Canadian_watcher]

I haven't seen this but just ran across the trailer. Looks interesting.

[American Dream]

^ speaking for myself, I think that question comes pretty close.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but to clarify- I personally do think that there are a lot of ideas that are pretty ridiculous- and that it can be quite ok to say so.

On the other hand, overly personalizing things and indulging in lots of ad hominem at the expense of debate about the ideas at stake can be both unfair and unhelpful...

[crikkett]

whereas by any fair assessment there has been semi-needless shit-talking by both sides here.

*yawn* for how many pages does this go on? This is only pg 12 of 17.

Someone please let me know if the thread gets intelligent again.

[Canadian_watcher]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but to clarify- I personally do think that there are a lot of ideas that are pretty ridiculous- and that it can be quite ok to say so.

On the other hand, overly personalizing things and indulging in lots of ad hominem... can be both unfair and unhelpful...

ridiculous [rɪˈdɪkjʊləs]
adj
worthy of or exciting ridicule; absurd, preposterous, laughable, or contemptible


-----

ridicule (ˈrɪdɪˌkjuːl)
— n
1. language or behaviour intended to humiliate or mock; derision
— vb
2. ( tr ) to make fun of, mock, or deride

Do you see how your two assertions, in red in the above quote, are inconsistent with one another?

[crikkett]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but to clarify- I personally do think that there are a lot of ideas that are pretty ridiculous- and that it can be quite ok to say so.

On the other hand, overly personalizing things and indulging in lots of ad hominem... can be both unfair and unhelpful...

Do you see how your two assertions, in red in the above quote, are inconsistent with one another?

I'll help. Ridiculing an idea is different than ridiculing a person. 2nd one hurts.

[Canadian_watcher]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but to clarify- I personally do think that there are a lot of ideas that are pretty ridiculous- and that it can be quite ok to say so.

On the other hand, overly personalizing things and indulging in lots of ad hominem... can be both unfair and unhelpful...

Do you see how your two assertions, in red in the above quote, are inconsistent with one another?

I'll help. Ridiculing an idea is different than ridiculing a person. 2nd one hurts.

Can you humilate an idea?

[Laodicean]

Ode To Beauty

Who gave thee, O Beauty!
The keys of this breast,
Too credulous lover
Of blest and unblest?
Say when in lapsed ages
Thee knew I of old;
Or what was the service
For which I was sold?
When first my eyes saw thee,
I found me thy thrall,
By magical drawings,
Sweet tyrant of all!
I drank at thy fountain
False waters of thirst;
Thou intimate stranger,
Thou latest and first!
Thy dangerous glances
Make women of men;
New-born we are melting
Into nature again.
Lavish, lavish promiser,
Nigh persuading gods to err,
Guest of million painted forms
Which in turn thy glory warms,
The frailest leaf, the mossy bark,
The acorn's cup, the raindrop's arc,
The swinging spider's silver line,
The ruby of the drop of wine,
The shining pebble of the pond,
Thou inscribest with a bond
In thy momentary play
Would bankrupt Nature to repay.

Ah! what avails it
To hide or to shun
Whom the Infinite One
Hath granted his throne?
The heaven high over
Is the deep's lover,
The sun and sea
Informed by thee,
Before me run,
And draw me on,
Yet fly me still,
As Fate refuses
To me the heart Fate for me chooses,
Is it that my opulent soul
Was mingled from the generous whole,
Sea valleys and the deep of skies
Furnished several supplies,
And the sands whereof I'm made
Draw me to them self-betrayed?
I turn the proud portfolios
Which hold the grand designs
Of Salvator, of Guercino,
And Piranesi's lines.
I hear the lofty Pæans
Of the masters of the shell,
Who heard the starry music,
And recount the numbers well:
Olympian bards who sung
Divine Ideas below,
Which always find us young,
And always keep us so.
Oft in streets or humblest places
I detect far wandered graces,
Which from Eden wide astray
In lowly homes have lost their way.

Thee gliding through the sea of form,
Like the lightning through the storm,
Somewhat not to be possessed,
Somewhat not to be caressed,
No feet so fleet could ever find,
No perfect form could ever bind.
Thou eternal fugitive
Hovering over all that live,
Quick and skilful to inspire
Sweet extravagant desire,
Starry space and lily bell
Filling with thy roseate smell,
Wilt not give the lips to taste
Of the nectar which thou hast.

All that's good and great with thee
Stands in deep conspiracy.
Thou hast bribed the dark and lonely
To report thy features only,
And the cold and purple morning
Itself with thoughts of thee adorning,
The leafy dell, the city mart,
Equal trophies of thine art,
E'en the flowing azure air
Thou hast touched for my despair,
And if I languish into dreams,
Again I meet the ardent beams.
Queen of things! I dare not die
In Being's deeps past ear and eye,
Lest there I find the same deceiver,
And be the sport of Fate forever.
Dread power, but dear! if God thou be,
Unmake me quite, or give thyself to me.

[crikkett]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but to clarify- I personally do think that there are a lot of ideas that are pretty ridiculous- and that it can be quite ok to say so.

On the other hand, overly personalizing things and indulging in lots of ad hominem... can be both unfair and unhelpful...

Do you see how your two assertions, in red in the above quote, are inconsistent with one another?

I'll help. Ridiculing an idea is different than ridiculing a person. 2nd one hurts.

Can you humilate an idea?

Take some time to think about it, please.

[The Consul]

Can this repackaged, rekindled reductio ad absurdum advance the what we don't know that isn't hurting them?

[Canadian_watcher]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but to clarify- I personally do think that there are a lot of ideas that are pretty ridiculous- and that it can be quite ok to say so.

On the other hand, overly personalizing things and indulging in lots of ad hominem... can be both unfair and unhelpful...

Do you see how your two assertions, in red in the above quote, are inconsistent with one another?

I'll help. Ridiculing an idea is different than ridiculing a person. 2nd one hurts.

Can you humilate an idea?

Take some time to think about it, please.

Does that mean that the answer is so obvious to you that you can't be bothered to share it with me, or that you don't have an answer?

I ask because this is precisely the type of sniping, humiliating response that makes threads like these go down the tubes.

If I am misinterpreting your response, which I admit was careful, please let me know.