Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

[brekin]

[General Patton]

When he was a few feet away, however, he came to a sudden halt, and his body and face became strangely distorted. He stared at me from an of angle, wriggling his fingers in the air like tentacles. He looked like some lizard contemplating a tasty-looking fly, or frog.

Of course, I thought he was joking. I waited for him to drop his little act, but he seemed frozen in this strange pose

That's not a big deal. Anybody here ever do anything with black mirrors or close eye contact meditations?





oh and uh, tl/dr

[zangtang]

not exactly routine, but this is widely experienced, indeed believe it is pretty much the objective (or the lessons learned/insight gleaned) of
the final Kriya on a 'White Tantra' day.....haven't done it for years, was fascinating when i did - 3 double rows of yogi & yoginis all dressed in white
spending all day doing 90 or 120 minute arm-bleedingly excrutiating chanting mantra kriyas then 90mins open-eyed meditation into the eyes of your opposite number.

on your tod, into a mirror in a darkened room (couple of candles behind you)....play some twinkly whalesong in the jungle cac to take the edge off.......
(must do it again)

[guruilla]

@lunarmoth: You already know how I feel about Mathis & that particular theory so we won't go there.

As far as MKULTRA programming overlapping with strange synchronicities, dreams, visions and the like, have you thought about how some of your experiences could have been generated/orchestrated specifically in order to pepper your testimony with seeming absurdities and so not only make the overall story seem less credible but also discredit you as a witness? In a similar way to how ritual abusers may introduce fantastic/satanic elements into the abuse (like those witch-dressed doctors you remember)?

For example (just because it's on the table), your vision of LC becoming lizard-like, or the light babies? It seems like it would be impossible to really know when a person was being messed with via such techniques, made/allowed to see certain things that would invalidate their experience, and when they were actually getting a glimpse of things they were not meant to see, via their own capacities.

I guess this is the shaky overlap between testifying to your own experience and turning it into a case to believe any given interpretation of it. Which is more or less why I tried to keep to the facts and minimize interpretation during our discussions. Not because of any inherent improbability of a given interpretation, but because I think the ground is always spiked around survivors to lead them to wrong conclusions.

This isn't restricted to survivors, either, but to the whole conspiracy culture, IMO. I'd be curious how you respond to the idea I expressed earlier today: "part of how the second matrix works: lone voices tend to go wherever they are heard, and wind up singing in a less than salubrious choir?"

Does any of this resonate with your experience?

[lunarmoth]

I hardly know where to begin to answer you, Wombaticus -- because (like some of the others here) you don't listen very well.

I never suggested anywhere that I have any "expertise" on John Lilly. I merely suggested that those of you who believe he was a wonderful human being, may need to dig deeper, and look at more evidence, before concluding that he's being slandered. I don't even remember bringing him up, frankly -- I think someone else did that. But my memory may be flawed because I've just spent 17 of the last 20 days as a live-in caregiver for elderly people with dementia. Much of the time I had little or no internet, no computer, just my android phone on which to follow, and sometimes add to, this thread. Sometimes I couldn't even read what I was typing. Often I was interrupted by people needing help, or throwing objects. Sorry, but this is what I do for a living these days. It's quite rewarding, although not in material ways.

Thanks, guruilla, for trying to explain and justify some of my cryptic posts, which I have not had time to reread. If I had a few more hours in a day, I would have looked up those Lilly references myself, but I was occupied with other things. At least, though, you get the difference between being a witness to bizarre events (why does that happen to some people and not others?) and researching and writing about those events LATER.

At least tonight I have a working laptop -- even though the keyboard is on its way out.

Light babies. Reptilians. Operatives. Guns. Henry Makow. Illuminati. Sorry guys. I didnt realize you were so sensitive. Let's delete all those expletives and replace with with something more ... theoretical. You seem to assume I don't know the difference between an anecdote and a PhD thesis -- and no, I don't always respect certain boundaries and have admittedly limited patience for people who base their entire worldview on "thinking" -- thinkig is a conscious function, with all the limitations that implies.

There are two unconscious functions, according to Jung: sensation and intuition. Which is why we can't control what we encounter on the road, or in our dreams. Whereas our thoughts and emotions are, at least sometimes, within our ability to control. But they are not Zen.

I think someone mentioned Henry Makow. I've never met him because he lives in Winnipeg. He's a little fanatical, frankly. In fact he and his savethemales.ca site horrified me at first. And then (a couple of years back) I read something he wrote about Sabbateans. No one else was researching or writing about Sabbateans, as if he actually had met them. And, as it happens, I had crossed paths with a few of them, especially when I hung out with Leonard Cohen which is why 20 years ago I read Gershom Scholem's 1000-page biography of Sabbatai Zevi. Zevi turns out to be quite influential in secretive circles... but that's another long tale. I also agree with some of Henry's thoughts on feminism -- because I, as it happens, was in the women's movement in Canada in the 1970s and watched it being subverted by extremist radical feminists, some of whom were funded by Ottawa in true COINTEL fashion. I generally agree that feminism as we now know it (think Kathleen Wynne) really is a CIA plot to destroy the family -- I have some experience to back that up -- but I don't hate feminists, or communists, or gays and I think it's unfortunate that Henry sometimes panders to people who do, and I see HenryMakow.com is now classified a 'hate' site. I find that a little sad, ironic, but not entirely surprising because I can't think of anyone else who would have published my piece on Cohen, and yes, it was Henry who chose the title as I would never use "Illuminati" (I'm not suicidal) -- but the fact is, Cohen does work for them and made no secret of that, when I knew him.

Henry is not all that different from all the other males he's trying to save. This may be hard for you to accept, guys, but some men have 'shadow alters' that they only share with women. It's terribly unfair that men will conduct themselves like rational beings in public, while confessing all kinds of dangerous secrets to the women they sometimes place on pedestals, and sometimes try to destroy. They'll lie awake pouring out their darkest thoughts, confessions, doubts, regrets, cryptic programs -- to certain women -- for two reasons that I can think of: (1) some men worship women as goddesses and see them as powerful agents of forgiveness and oceanic wisdom, and (2) most men know their secrets are safe because women are rarely believed when they tell the truth.

But no worries, Wombaticus. For whatever reasons having to do with fate, genetics, consciousness, and also awareness of a world beyond this one,you could not have been, and never will have the opportunity to be where I was, when it happened, observing what I observed at all the levels that I observed it. And therefore, it's of absolutely no consequence to me whether you believe a word of my story or not. Will the world be suddenly improved because you allow yourself to suspend judgment for a moment? I don't think so. And it would require emotional intelligence you don't seem to have. I could also ask: how old are you anyway? and, when was the last time you gave birth to anything?

It's late here. I do appreciate all your questions and objections. I wish I had time to stay up and go over them all and write up a serious response that would satisfy your need for truth, but I'm getting up at 5 am tomorrow. That's the reality. I wish it were otherwise.

What makes you an expert on the "ethics that guided his life and work?"

I met a man on Bequia who used to hang out with John Lilly. He described him as a heavy drinker who hung out on a yacht in Bali with young women. This man also said he knew Ed Dames. And, oddly, this man had a double who was following him from place to place. The double showed up in the bar one night and impersonated him -

This is a true story. Of course I cant prove it really happened. But it's more interesting than listening to experts pretend to have expertise and knowledge about the ethics of people they have read about, who were on the CIA payroll but never harmed a hair on a little child's head.

So...you've never met John Lilly...but you met a guy who did. Yeah, that's expertise, all right. I yield.

Been wasting a lot of time reading. Should have been hanging out in Caribbean bars instead. Got a lot to think about this weekend.

[lunarmoth]

Guruilla -- I have skimmed your list of questions and the short answer is NO. I didn't set out to write something that would build my reputation as a thinker. I set out to describe experiences that began with early childhood TRAUMA which was itself rooted in a criminal underworld, a kind of shadow universe which officially does not even exist. It's another world entirely from the world of this forum. That's why trauma victims usually express themselves in art or poetry. However, this doesn't meant their experiences have no validity, never happened, and should be subjected to a thorough sterilization in order to gain wider acceptance. There are many worlds coexisting together, and many ways of denying them. For instance, say you had been tortured as a child: you might repress that trauma and construct an ultra-rational overself seeking approval from the very people who tortured you -- or maybe those people's children.

There's also no reason that what begins in trauma and fragmentation can't grow and develop, through a process of dialogue, into a logical argument. But that has to be the intention. I'd like to see that happen with this material. But for now, I think I'll just allow it to be what it is. Did someone say "Transgressive" ?

[guruilla]

It's another world entirely from the world of this forum. That's why trauma victims usually express themselves in art or poetry. .

Actually this forum has several trauma victims posting at it, this one included. That's ^^^ a crazily sweeping generalization. Trauma victims come in every shape & size, IMO.

[lunarmoth]

Ok, it's another world entirely from PARTS of this forum. Just as criticism is worlds apart from fiction. Or analysis differs from narrative. But of course they need one another.

I think you're way off when you suggest my stranger experiences werr programmed into me. I could just as simplistically argue that what's programmed into us is the need to deny, ridicule and minimize whatever can't be rationalized.

Among other things, trauma is also a door to other dimensions. That, in a way, is the theme of The Man Next Door. But as I just mentioned to you in an email, the podcast and the interview are worlds and years apart. I purposely structured TMND like a Harlequin romance, which of course it is not. But many women tell me they cant put it down. Like it or not, we are programmed to respond to trite clichés. I see a few of them surfacing on this forum, from men who are obviously used to making patronizing comments to, about and even on behalf women they don't know. Sorry, but I'm familiar with these tactics and find them tedious and transparent.

No one who hasnt listened to the podcast has a real basis for discussing the contents. And since its six hours long, i think it's unrealistic to expect that of everyone. However maybe you could repost the list of topics covered in the interview --

If there are trauma survivors here, let's hear from them.

[MinM]

Third and forth parts of conversation with Ann Diamond on Leonard Cohen, MKUltra, cultural engineering.

I liked the dig Ann got in at Yoko.

[guruilla]

Timeline of Ann Diamond's interactions with Leonard Cohen, on request:

Leonard timeline

Jasun has asked me to provide a timeline of my meetings and involvement with Leonard Cohen, because listeners have reported they are confused. I hesitated to do this at first, as there were many meetings over many years, and listing them all could create the impression that I am “obsessed” with Cohen. I try to deal with this in the interview. It's true that Cohen has had a major impact on my life, and it's easier to justify that assertion now that he has become an international figure influencing millions. I happened to be born and grow up in the same city—no great “coincidence”—to frequent some of the same downtown streets, restaurants—like thousands of others—and even going out with him does not place me in an exclusive club.

What sets me a bit apart from many of his acquaintances is that they knew him in a single place or time: Montreal, New York, London, Hydra, Tennessee, Israel, Los Angeles, Mount Baldy (to name a few) whereas I was in several of these places during the time I knew him.

Leonard Cohen is a bit of a chameleon. In reality, his behavior and personality are pretty consistent, but he has been received and interpreted differently from place to place. In his home town of Montreal, he was once known as a misogynist. On Hydra, friends and fans viewed him in godlike terms. He is more complex, ironic, secretive and subtle than the biographers' portrayal of him as a sincere artist haunted by addictions, frustrations, betrayals and losses.

I only “stalked” him once, in December of 1979, an adventure that ended in my traveling with his European tour group in the UK in its final week. No one, let alone me, could have followed him everywhere he went. The more you see of Leonard, the harder he is to decode.

Here is a short timeline that might help put all this in context.

1951-1966: Montreal. I was born and grew up in the suburbs of Montreal. My teen years coincided with the British invasion: the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Dylan etc.

1966. Montreal. Leonard Cohen began appearing on Canadian TV, presented as a serious alternative to Bob Dylan for my generation which was, apparently, seeking a leader.

1968. Montreal. My first Leonard sighting happened in a bar where I attended my first poetry reading. Cohen was in the audience.
October 1970. Montreal. On the night the War Measures Act was declared, I ran into Cohen stopped at a traffic light downtown in pouring rain. I called out: “I know who you are,” and he replied “I know who you are.” (In future encounters, he would often repeat my statements back to me in automatic fashion, which happens to be a technique used in Ericksonian hypnosis and allegedly opens the mind to programming.)

November 1977 Montreal. After a series of near encounters in our neighbourhood (east of McGill, downhill from the Allan Memorial), I asked a mutual friend to give Cohen my phone number. One evening around 9 pm he called and invited me over for tea. We saw each other several times over the next few months. When I left for Europe in the spring of 1979, Leonard wrote down the names of four of his friends on Hydra, and told me he would be there in June.

Summer 1979. Hydra. Cohen arrived in early August and stayed to the end of the month. I saw him but kept my distance. The scene was definitely cult-like.

December 1979. Montreal and London. I joined Leonard and his Texan band, plus Jennifer Warnes and Sharon Robinson, on the final leg of the Field Commander Cohen tour for ten days and six or seven concerts. I also visited him one time in his room at the Royal Arch Hotel where he checked in along with two underage girls from Poland. (An aside: Jimmy Savile happened to be in London that week, hosting his music show “Top of the Pops.”)

January 1980. Montreal. I saw him once or twice in Montreal. In late February I received a phone call from Leonard’s band in Texas, inviting me to join them and Leonard on their Australian tour. I attended my mother’s funeral that week instead.

September 1980. Montreal. Greece. Israel. The “missing year on Hydra”: I returned to Hydra in late September with a Canada Council grant to write a novel just as Leonard left for New York to embark on his second European tour in two years. I went travelling around some Greek islands, then flew to Egypt and travelled to Israel where I met Cohen and the band at the airport on November 22, attended both concerts, witnessed a showdown between Cohen and his band, and left for Greece. Arriving on Hydra, I found Leonard ensconced in his house on the island, and saw him several times over the first week of December.

This is where my story departs from the official narrative. According to both biographers, Leonard flew directly from Tel Aviv to New York in late November, celebrated Hannukah with his children while staying at the Algonquin Hotel off Central Park where he began writing “If It Be Your Will” on December 15, 1980, or exactly a week after John Lennon was shot at the Dakota, and spent the rest of the year in North America. This is incorrect. Leonard remained on Hydra from late November 1980 through to the following September. I spoke to him at his house on the night of December 5, then saw him disembark from the hydrofoil in the port of Hydra on a Sunday December 14 with his two children and their French nanny, who stayed over Christmas with him in the house. Leonard’s Spanish translator Alberto Manzano arrived on December 26 and stayed til New Years, taking photos of Cohen and his children around the island.

Over the winter I saw him fairly often and we were on friendly terms initially. He was embracing fundamentalism, drinking heavily with cronies, and professing love for Ronald Reagan who had just been elected President. In January, he began telling me we were getting married and this became a confusing theme that winter as he was having serial affairs with women Hydra. Some were younger and more vulnerable than I. The hardships of wintering on a Greek island were worsened by all the jealousy and one woman ended up in hospital after attempting suicide. For survival, I withdrew into my writing. I was glad to leave Hydra the following September with my novel finished.

1982-83. Montreal. New Mexico. Mount Baldy. Ithaca. NYC. In early October, I saw a light at Leonard’s house in Montreal and knocked on the door. He let me in but told me never to drop in without phoning first. This smacked of strange Hydra intrigues so I never phoned or dropped by again. Meanwhile, a mutual acquaintance (Ken Hertz) began telling me about the MKULTRA files at McGill, which he said contained shocking information about experiments on children including myself, my twin brother and Ken Hertz himself during the 1950s and 60s. He claimed that Leonard had also been involved in this program which was based at the Allan Memorial Institute.

Early in 1982, Leonard took me to visit his old mentor, McGill Law Professor Frank Scott and his wife at in their home in Westmount. While Leonard chatted in the next room with Frank, Marion showed me paintings she had made while under the influence of LSD, and asked if I had ever taken this drug. Later, Leonard asked me if I had ever been in a flotation tank and described his out of body experiences on LSD in sensory isolation.

In the fall of 1982 I flew back to Greece and stayed on Hydra. Before leaving Montreal I saw Leonard, who expressed dismay that I would go back there, and suggested I go and study with his Roshi in California. On Hydra for three months, I picked up gossip that portrayed me as a desperate groupie. I flew back to Montreal in December, via Warsaw, where Polish martial law was very visible at the airport.

In February 1982, I ended up at Bodhi Mandala Zen Centre in New Mexico and later to Mount Baldy Zen Center near L.A. where I began studying Zen with the Roshi. Leonard showed up and we both spent the next two months in intensive retreats in California and New Mexico. In one of their nightly drinking sessions that April, Leonard and Roshi made a deal whereby Leonard agreed to support me to study at Roshi's centers—presumably to become a nun. I liked the Roshi—he had helped me sort out my history with Leonard—but I had no intention of spending my life in monasteries. That same week, a friend phoned from Montreal and offered me a very cheap apartment in the same neighbourhood where I had lived for over a decade. I decided the universe was showing me a way out, and accepted the sublet, sight unseen, without knowing the exact address. This apartment turned out to be next door to Leonard’s house on rue Vallieres.

I had begun to think of Leonard as my “koan.” I lived next door to him in Montreal for another thirteen years.

1983-1996: Neighbour of the Beast. Next door to Leonard, I had other famous musicians as neighbours, and an unbelievably kind Italian landlady who hadn’t raised the rent in decades. So I was able to live off my writing and occasional teaching.

In the weeks after I moved in, I had to call the police several times. A young man on LSD climbed through my kitchen window one night as I sat reading at the table. In December my Portuguese neighbour—a schizophrenic and a big Leonard fan—pulled a knife on me in the park. Over the years there were burglaries and break-ins. In retrospect I wonder if some were orchestrated to make me move away. Although I behaved like an ordinary neighbour, my presence on the block was perceived as an intrusion onto Leonard’s private turf. One day he invited me over for a friendly lecture about feudal lords and vassals and how in medieval times peasants and others would swear oaths while placing their hand on their master’s crotch. He seemed dead serious. There was definitely a cult-like scene involving mostly people who had been to Hydra. It was also a world of paranoia, with some of his friends acting like an unofficial police force. In peaceful interludes I was treated like a friend; when tensions rose I seemed to become a pariah. Over those years, Leonard came and went between Montreal and Los Angeles. He would tell me we were getting married, then seem to forget who I was. One night I opened my front door to find Leonard standing on my doorstep—I didn’t recognize him right off—he seemed almost lost and looked as if he had just had plastic surgery. In 1993, after a destructive rampage by neo-Nazi skinheads, I was accused of being the one who threw the rock through his front window.

1996. Los Angeles. The last time I spoke to Leonard was in the courtyard of Rinzai-Ji Zen Center. He drove up in a black SUV, and was smoking a large cigar just as I was walking out of the dining room. As on our first meeting in 1970, he rolled down his window and we exchanged greetings. “Have you been a good boy?” I asked. Chomping down on his cigar, he answered: “I’m the best there is.” As I turned to walk away I said, “That’s not what I’ve been hearing.”

Over the next six months in Los Angeles, I saw how even a relatively strong spiritual community can be undermined and taken over by the kind of divide-and-rule tactics that Leonard is good at. But that’s a subject unto itself, and this is just a timeline. I never saw him again—except one other time, in 2004, when I had returned to Montreal and decided to take a walk through my old neighbourhood. Arriving at Portuguese Park, I sat down on a bench with my back to Leonard’s house. A moment or two later, he came out, accompanied by a very short man in black looking like a cross between a lawyer and an undertaker, and an Asian woman (probably Anjani Thomas.) They got into a black car and drove away. On that day, Leonard received the Order of Canada.

It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

[brekin]

That is helpful. One wonders, though, whether one can be a false folk prophet, rich creep, with possible crypto extreme right tendencies, cult like proclivities, an immoral rock and roll lifestyle and pal around with people of ill repute and still not be an operative? You know, what if Cohen is just another aging narcissistic rich famous asshole? I mean, people change, have crisis's and I don't know anyone serious about the fame machine, whatever their supposed ideology, who wouldn't (when it comes down to it) sign a deal with the devil to get another record deal. Also, celebs and their lifestyle and pressures are low hanging fruit for all kinds of alternative, occult and fringe practices (to say nothing of your usual drug abuse) which makes them very unstable people in general. Cohen behaving erratically and being an asshole seems par for his trajectory, with the poet and Buddhist wrapper possible just compensatory wrappers.

This could just be my reading, but sometimes there seems to be a strong current of Cohen changing/selling out/not staying true to the music/always being a sniffy rich kid, which is taken as further evidence that his cerebral master tapes were remastered or he came on the scene pre-programmed as a MKULTRA marionette. Some of it though just reads like the adolescent shock, the shock!, of finding out the John Lennon who wrote Imagine could also be a huge asshole. Did Cohen sell out? Probably, most definitely. But to whom and when seems the key question and so far it just seems like the usual VH1 behind the music trajectory.



Leonard Cohen - Almost Like The Blues

I saw some people starving
There was murder, there was rape
Their villages were burning
They were trying to escape
I couldn't meet their glances
I was staring at my shoes
It was acid, it was tragic
It was almost like the blues
It was almost like the blues

I have to die a little
Between each murderous thought
And when I'm finished thinking
I have to die a lot
There's torture and there's killing
And there's all my bad reviews
The war, the children missing
Lord, it's almost like the blues
It's almost like a blues

So I let my heart get frozen
To keep away the rot
My father says I'm chosen
My mother says I'm not
I listened to their story
Of the Gypsies and the Jews
It was good, it wasn't boring
It was almost like the blues
It was almost like the blues

There is no God in Heaven
And there is no Hell below
So says the great professor
Of all there is to know
But I've had the invitation
That a sinner can't refuse
And it's almost like salvation
It's almost like the blues
It's almost like a blues
Almost like a blues

[guruilla]

This reads more like a dismissal than an argument, to me. It's an eloquent expression of opinion based on vagaries that doesn't address the evidence but simply denies that it is evidence, of anything besides same old, same old.

But a) the facts as laid out have at least somewhat convinced me and others here of Cohen's intelligence affiliations.
and b) there is testimony from someone who knew him who believes she knows this for a fact, which, while it doesn't prove that, must certainly count for a lot more than the above expressed opinion.

(AD's testimony even leaves out some key points, such as that Cohen's hang-out on Hydra, Bill's Bar, was frequented by ex-intell & military types. But of course to find out these things requires genuine curiosity.)

[brekin]

This reads more like a dismissal than an argument, to me. It's an eloquent expression of opinion based on vagaries that doesn't address the evidence but simply denies that it is evidence, of anything besides same old, same old.

But a) the facts as laid out have at least somewhat convinced me and others here of Cohen's intelligence affiliations.
and b) there is testimony from someone who knew him who believes she knows this for a fact, which, while it doesn't prove that, must certainly count for a lot more than the above expressed opinion.

(AD's testimony even leaves out some key points, such as that Cohen's hang-out on Hydra, Bill's Bar, was frequented by ex-intell & military types. But of course to find out these things requires genuine curiosity.)

Well, I'm arguing that the evidence I've seen so far doesn't do a good job of convincing me, so I'm not dismissing it (well not all of it) but filing it in a different cubby then others, who believe that for example, someones interpretation of Cohen having a strange fit in an airport is evidence of high weirdness (alter switching/shape shifting/programming) when Cohen could have just had American Airlines chicken dinner and had to take a Defcon 4 shit.

I look at it this way, using a fairly positive result. William Holden is an example of a famous actor who appears to have been a pretty clear CIA operative from what I can tell from available evidence. Holden had a hunting lodge in Kenya where intelligence types probably came and went pretty frequently. Now if Wayne Newton also lives in the area (say he's a big game hunter) and frequents the place when he is in the area that doesn't make him an de facto operative, even if he's aware of the crowd and is even friendly with some of them and sympathetic to their stated and unstated agendas. Newton would have to being doing something for them or vis versa. Passing through and frequenting an international hub of social and political import doesn't implicate someone just because intelligence types are also there. And that is an example of a hosted intelligence watering hole, not just a bar in a strategic locale that internationals pass through.

I mean, chances are any bar you go into overseas is going to have an ex special services member from America/Israel there talking about an assassination they were in on. Just as Cohen being a student at McGill and possibly taking part in a psychological experiment(s) there doesn't necessarily make him an actual MKULTRA victim (I haven't gotten to/seen where it says Cohen actually took part in these experiments and for how long so I appreciate if anyone can pass on specifics). I don't doubt there were inhumane human experiments taking place from what I read at McGill, but every university also has a lot of inane psychological experimenting going on also all the time. Cohen hanging out at a bar occasionally where intel and gov. types do and being a student at a school that had MKULTRA experiments doesn't make him the Manchurian Crooner in my eyes.

[guruilla]

What's the "available evidence" for Holden being a CIA op?

First I've heard of it. More than casual interest, have a long time creative identification with Sam Peckinpah.

[brekin]

What's the "available evidence" for Holden being a CIA op?

First I've heard of it. More than casual interest, have a long time creative identification with Sam Peckinpah.

Ha, ha, no you don't sweet baby. I didn't start a thread titled: William Holden, Operative? But the truth is out there. Fire up your browsers. Besides, doesn't it just seem like he should be?